Very disappointed with featured website.

Ouch! Jason, that was a little harsh. But thanks for the link. Being part of "the general public" I am a little put back by what you said. I only wish my local rental outlet had a section like that. Right now all I do is go down the isle saying "nope, not that one, not that one either", and wind up in the family or classic films section. And as for the directors intent, his only "intent" is to get you to buy the stupid thing. That's why the sex and violence is there in the first place. So who is the director "dumbing down" to. It has little to do with the story line (assuming there is one). Also, there is a big difference between art and entertainment. And believe me, most of what's out there isn't art. So if DVD ETC. wants to let me know about Clean Films, where's the harm. This is America. There's room for both. Gene

I am a member of the general public that finds cleanfilms.com and their ilk completely appalling, and I am equally surprised on a few levels that they would be a featured website in the magazine. As a movie viewer, you have to realize that not every movie is for every audience. We all have different tastes, not to mention tolerance levels. Without delving into the state of morality or lack there of in the film industry, here's why I find these companies unacceptable:

1. They are renting bootlegs. There's no way around this. You are not renting the original movie that the studio put out, you are watching a movie that was purchased on DVD, ripped, edited, and re-released by a 3rd party (the rental company) without any licensing or permission to do so from the studio that released the film. Start making any excuse you want to right now to defend them, it's still bootlegging. You can read the FAQ on their website that explains that what they are doing isn't technically illegal because they are a private club that's renting 'backups' not bootlegs. That is a crock. What their FAQ doesn't tell you is that they are being sued (along with a handful of other companies that do the same thing) by the MPAA for bootlegging. Go to any website that sells bootlegs, and you can read their FAQ about how it's a backup, not a bootleg.

Still don't think it's illegal? Stepping away from the 'backup' or 'private club' arguments they offer, keep in mind that it is most definitely illegal to circumvent any electronic security measures on media for the purpose of making a copy. This is for any reason. To copy these DVD's, they most definitely have to circumvent the electronic security measures.

2. Aside from editing for content, much more is edited out of most of the DVD's. This is something they admit in their FAQ. 5.1 sound, whether dolby or DTS is going to be removed from these discs. That's the nature of the editing process they use. Menus, also gone. Features, in most cases, also gone. Perhaps most importantly, and something else they gladly mention in their FAQ, picture quality also suffers. Goodbye DVD quality, hello pixellation and artifacting. So, take the best of what DVD has to offer, and most of the selling points that made you invest hundreds or thousands of dollars in home theater gear and toss it right out the window. You're basically getting a 2 channel stereo bare bones disc with inferior picture.

Based on those two things alone, I cannot see why DVD Etc. would feature them. As a subscriber I've looked to DVD Etc. to set the bar on what discs are quality and what are not. While I've been shocked to see what some HT mags will call reference quality, DVD Etc. has usually been right on the money in regards to what discs offer to high quality sound and picture. Featuring cleanfilms.com does a total 180.

On a side note, if you really want clean films, and you want them legally, find a good Malaysian website that sells DVDs and VCDs. Malaysia has some of the strongest censorship in the world, and every movie released there is edited by the government's film board. They take out any nudity and violence that is not absolutely integral to the plot of the film, and they are extremely strict in those regards. This is all done pre-production, so any disc will be a legit studio endorsed copy, and a DVD will truly be DVD quality. Most of the VCD's you find will be around $4-5 for a major studio release, and if you have never seen a professionally released VCD you might be surprised to see that they will actually look better and sound better than the DVD-R's that companies like cleanfilms.com offers.

Ronn, two very good points. First, I figured CleanFilms was doing this with the approval of the studio's. Shame on me. I should have know better. Second, the removal of 5.1 IS removing half the experience. Shame on them. It would be nice if people had a choice though without going to Malaysia. I guess the next time I have the niece and nephew for the day I'll have to go straight to the family section! Gene

OOPS! I almost forgot. I think I owe Jason a small apology too. But just a little one! Gene

Hmmm...? I guess the term "dumbing down" is all in how you define it. The reason that I decided to go ahead and run this is because I found myself a "parent" for an evening by way of babysitting. I chose to let these kids (ages, 7,9,10 &11) watch Goonies-rated PG. What I did not take into account is that this movie was rated before PG-13 was immplemented. There is mild lanuguage throughout the film--still appalling to the young kids in my home that were viewing it. I turned the movie off and looked for other selections.

The experience left me with an impression. "Dumbing Down" to me is more "numbing down." Today's youth see so much sex and violence that they have become numb to it. Just because it's free speech, or free expression or freedom of choice doesn't make it wholesome.

To what extent do you take the idea of piracy--i.e. the use of clips or images without permission? Because over 50% of HTF Members use images from films without even sourcing them to the studio. And I know every image we use we must source to the studio due to piracy issues.

-C

A few days later I found myself watching Sea Biscuit. And outstanding movie by all accounts. Unfortunately, sexual situations and language prevent it from being something the whole family can enjoy--especially a young family.

There are currently DVD players hitting the market with built-in filtering that effectively do what cleanfilms.com is doing.

Just like the website you have the freedom to purchase this player or not. You have the freedom to let your kids watch filth or not.

And just like every bit of content we include in DVD ETC. Magazine from equipment to film reviews, you can choose to read it or not. You can choose to buy it or not.

Our job is to show all of what is out there. this doesn't mean that we're endorsing it or not. That is part of keeping our readers well informed. And based on your reactions, you are now informed about something you didn't know existed.

I don't believe that the statement about these films being "bootlegged" is quantified. How do you know they don't have permission to edit the content? I think they would have been shut down by now.

Well, the MPAA, Directors Guild of America, and the DMCA would have to disagree. Here's a quick link to some of the press releases regardign DGA's lawsuits against these companies: http://www.dga.org/news/pr_expand.php3?281

The MPAA had a handful of seperate lawsuits against the varying companies as well, but has lumped them all into their DECSS Federal lawsuits. Not much info online that I've seen about it, but there have been quite a few articles in print on it.



Again, the lawsuits from the copyright holders tend to state that.



Federal courts move at a snail's pace. These lawsuits have been going on for 2+ years, DECSS has been going on for over 4 now, if I remember correctly.

I can understand why a parent or individual would want this service, don't get me wrong. What I don't understand is people's ideas that this is OK to do, even though it goes against Federal law. Is it OK to break some copyright laws now? Can I release my own version of DVD Etc. with reviews that are more in line with my thoughts? Do I have your permission to do that?

How about an article about this in your magazine? No need to interpret the laws or right/wrong; just a lowdown of what's going on with these companies that edit and the response from the film community. I think it could be an interesting article.

Jason, even though I don't agree with most of what you said, if your thread was "harsh" as I said, then my reply was down right rude! Thanks for not throwing the book at me How about we call some of this stuff "commercial" art and leave it at that? And Clint, if you'r still listening, when you put something like that in your magazine people will think you are endorsing it, even if you arn't. Might not be right, but that's the way it is. Gene

I agree that we (DVD ETC. Magazine) should put a feature together about this topic discussing both sides of the coin. Ron makes an excellent point about the idea of chaging my content in the mag to fit personal views. Although plagerization requires a person to reprint without permission--not omit. Permission is required to repurpose nonetheless. Who would want to change what WE have to say?

This topic makes way for a "Point/Counterpoint" feature that we have been discussing. Anyone here want to take up the sword?

Um, Clint, buddy, I might be interested.

My ears are open Jack...

Well to get around the endorsement issue, we could have a black page with white text BEFORE the web site page, where we state "The comments and beliefs expressed in the following web site do not necessarily reflect those of..."

Naw, I wouldn't plagiarize DVD Etc, I would just take an exacto knife and cut out all of the reviews I disagreed with (not to mention all of the dirty pictures.) Don't worry, I'll put an Edited for Mature Content label on the front. My organization will be called DVD and Home Theater Group for Cleaner Living Through Editing. I think with a catchy acronym like DVDAHTGFCLTE I'll be an overnight sensation; it practically rolls off the tongue.

A point/counterpoint article would be kind of cool. Another idea or possibly a companion piece could be a reader roundtable sort of thing like you did with cables awhile back.