Pierce Brosnan out as Bond? (UPDATE: Daniel Craig confirmed) - Page 21

How does David Arnold know what bits of the James Bond Theme Barry wrote?

I'm a huge John Barry fan who always wondered how a guy like Monty Norman (who didn't do much before or after Dr. No) wrote that wondrous theme.

Norman sued an English paper that portrayed him (Norman) as some guy getting by on the back of Barry's actual work. Guess what? He sued and won.

John Barry was there supporting the paper's version/side and presented long testimony. A looooong account of the trial that I read indicated that Barry's own account, particularly what he did and when he did it came across as confusing and ... less than credible.

So the facts are that Norman was initially credited with the work and has subsequently won in court on the matter. So, Monty Norman appears to be a one hit wonder. Goodness knows there have been many of those over time.

John Barry need not worry. His great legacy lies in a ton of great scores way past just his terrific work on Bond.

I just listen to the Theme and Barry's other works throughout his career and I just know that he wrote the BOND THEME.

Becuase, I was always of the understanding that Monty Norman himself has stated many times over the years that the only bit of the theme he wrote was the twangy guitar bit - i.e., the main melody, and even then, not in the finalized style we know it now (I believe Barry even added notes to that section, too). The rest, the dum-dum-dum-dum backing beat, the the rising and falling brass sections, the "middle-eight" or bridge bit (the bit that Arnold likes to quote the most) and the final, rising notes that finish the theme (which Arnold sometimes likes to use for the gunbarrell sequences) are all Barry's. In other words, 90% of the thing.

Of course, if anyone has any proof to say the opposite (such as Monty Norman himself), I'd very much welcome being put right. Wouldn't want to get sued or anything.

The London newspaper was sued by Norman because the belittled and
presented him in print as a man of no accomplishments.
In the trial he was able to demonstrate many accomplishments. He has a
wonderful personality and even sang for the jury!
Barry has waited too long to set matters straight concerning exactly
what he did with or to Norman's contribution to produce the result: THE
JAMES BOND THEME.

Barry is a nervous man in public and refused to rehearse his answers or
even get his facts straight as a mind refresher before hand and it was
easy to confuse him on the stand. Contrasting Barry in public with
Norman in public it was Monty who came off best in that consideration.

The trial has been misrepresented as being about authorship of the Bond
Theme. It was not. That was peripheral. Yes, that too came up and was
discussed at length.
But, the winning of the lawsuit on Norman's part had only to do with
the fact the jury believed the London Times had given him short-shrift in
labeling him as a man of mean accomplishments.

Monty Norman handed Barry a brief sketch of a mere fragment of an idea
for a song Norman had been developing of a musical (Norman referred to
the song snippet as "Good Sign, Bad Sign"). According to John Barry and
others present on this occasion, the Norman "idea" wasn't really useful
to what Barry wanted to do.

The most Norman had provided was the "dum ditty dum dum" rhythmic idea
to which Barry added everything else even selecting the guitar as the
instrument to play the theme. Barry wrote a Dizzy Gillespie-style big
band middle section and used a vamp (the rising and falling figure)from
an old Cab Calloway song: Minnie the Moocher to add some mystery behind
the theme.
Many people even think of the James Bond Theme as this rising and
falling three notes as soon as they hear it.
Norman gave next to nothing and Barry did everything else. But, do to
contractual reasons, Barry sold this composition outright to the
producers. He had to trade his residual benefits (nobody dreamed there would
BE any!) for a chance at future assignments.
Barry has been a gentleman about this for decades publicly; but,
privately he is steamed.
He has often said: "If I didn't write the theme, why was it ME hired to
do the other subsequent Bond films while Norman went into almost total
eclipse?"



J.B. came back a few days later and the JAMES BOND THEME was born!

Maybe because Bernard Lee passed away before filming? Just an idea...

Jason

Uh, that IS why he was absent, I didn't elaborate on the reason he was missing, I just pointed it out. My entire point was that "Q" was missing in "Live and Let Die", M was missing in "For Your Eyes Only" but Moneypenny was the only character other than Bond to appear in all 20 movies.

I liked the music best in "A View to a Kill" and "The Living Daylights". I'd say there's a perfect, undated sound to both those scores. You can't say that for "For Your Eyes Only" which still sounds a bit disco in portions.

I wasn't that thrilled with Moonraker's score either, so maybe it's best to stick with a winning formula.

The music in the recent Brosnan flicks hasn't bothered me. DAD is a little over-modernized, but still sounds like Bond to me.

I thought Goldeneye's score sucked, but worked well for the videogame.

My point was, there was a reason why M wasn't in the movie, not like some of the statements of not having characters, "just because"...

I also think the character of Moneypenny has never been quite what it was since Lois Maxwell left the series.

Jason

There really isn't a "reason" for it. Characters were re-cast previously in the 007 series (the film in question featured the THIRD Bond) and Q wasn't "temporarily retired" after Desmond Llewlyn's death. The movie just says M is elsewhere, just because.

I believe it was covered in one of the documentaries on the Bond DVDs that for all intents and purposes Barry wrote the Bond theme, but Norman got the credit because of a contract deal of some kind.

My recollection of the documentaries is that Norman took the tune from some song (a ditty, really) which he'd written, which became the main "tune" of the Bond theme, but that it was Barry who realised it should be played on a twangy guitar, and at a much faster tempo, to arrive at what we recognise as the theme today.

Arnold actually stated in the TWINE documentary that he deliberately tries to restrict use of the actual theme, saying that when audiences hear the theme, they would want to see Bond doing something, well, Bond-ish. In this context, my personal modern favourite score is indeed TWINE, especially the Thames river chase, which sounds very Bond-like in most parts without being the actual Bond theme, until (IIRC) he submerged, or maybe fired a missile, at which time the Bond theme in its full glory gets blasted -- which I enjoyed.

I like how Barry handled Octopussy as well.

Incorrect. The Times' allegation that Norman did not compose the James Bond Theme was the centerpiece issue of the lawsuit. A quick Google of this will confirm this.

You make these 'statements' as if they were facts. They are not. They are nothing more than hearsay.

Again, hearsay. We were not there.

First of all, Barry didn't sell anything as he never owned it. Now, the 'giving up my rights' for future work' story never made any sense to me. The producers will hire the best person available for the next gig ... period, and any other logic is nonsensical.

That Norman could not handle a full score would be one possibility.

Look, you're from Texas, the 'go big or go home' state. Let's cut through the crap. If John Barry is steamed he can sue Norman and get it over with. He hasn't. Maybe that should tell us something. I love Barry's work but Put Up or Shut Up seems to apply here (and to Texas Hold 'em.)

Meanwhile, John Barry is still tops as a composer. I'm listening to his score to Deadfall (1968) as I'm writing this. Interesting score, you need only listen to a few bars to know it's Barry's work. Vocal by Shirley Bassey to boot.

As I recall, The ditty was Under The Mango Tree from Dr. No which Norman got inspiration from whilst in Jamaca. (From the Dr. No Documentaries on the DVD) It's melody was what became what we know as the James Bond theme.

Not to continue to go on about the Daniel Craig thing, and how appropriate he may or may not be, I had a funny thought about all this. I was thinking about an early episode of Get Smart, the TV spoof of the Bond films. As you may recall, Don Adams starred as Maxwell Smart, secret agent 86 of Control. One episode from about 1966 had him trying to protect a character played by Carol Burnett. When he confessed to her that he was a secret agent sent to protect her from the evil forces of Kaos, she broke out into an hysterical laugh. Her reply to him was, "Well, you're not exactly like that Sean O'Connery feller, all tall and handsome."

I also saw on the IMDB site another poll asking if Craig was the right choice. Interestingly, the voters, were split almost evenly 3 ways between 'no', 'yes' and 'don't care'. No was leading.

Only that he now regrets allowing Monty Norman to take sole credit for music they both contributed to (Barry more than Norman). We've all done things we regret. I should think he doesn't sue because he agreed to it, and the contract is probably still legally binding today. Therefore, he probably knows he hasn't a leg to stand on. He doesn't sue because nothing illegal has taken place. That doesn't mean we, nearly fifty years on, shouldn't give credit where credit is due. It's a bit like insisting that both Lennon and McCartney wrote Yesterday, just because it's credited to the pair, when the entire world knows Lennon had nothing to do with it. Credit where credit is due.





Something like that. I believe what actually happpened was that Norman had written a calypso-style tune for a musical years earlier and, realising it would adapt quite well to the calypso sound in Doctor No, tried it out for the film. It didn't work at all, so the few notes he had come up with were handed over to John Barry, who then created the Bond theme, almost from scratch. The fact that Monty Norman gets payments for its use to this day, and not Barry, is perhaps unfair and annoying in an ideal world, but I doubt it's something Barry loses sleep over, given the fact he's earned quite a bit of money over the years, thank you very much.

Norman's public account is that he wrote the bulk of the James Bond Theme and Barry's contributions were small. If untrue, that is slander. No contract allows a man to slander another man's work and reputation.

I'm no expert on the Beatles, but I've heard that Lennon and McCartney have been quoted making contradicting statements as to what they contributed to a certain song. Perhaps some of it is artists being artists or fuzzy memories, I don't know. To your point, not to worry about either Barry or Norman financially speaking. During the trial, Norman supposedly had to report what he made on residuals for the James Bond Theme alone. I don't remember the total but it was several hundred thousand dollars, each and every year. Ka-ching. So, imagine what Barry rakes in ...

It does if you're credited as being the sole composer. How is Barry supposed to prove differently?



No, it's been preety much confirmed by all present at that time who composed what and when. Paul was the only writer on Yesterday, and many, many other Beatles compositions. Quite rightly, he now regrets allowing the Lennon/McCartney credit to see print but, as with John Barry, he was young and made silly decisions like that.

Point taken. But in court the same applies to Monty Norman. He didn't win the case because someone credited him with writing the song, he had to prove his case. Consider his going in position. Here he is, a man known basically for writing one song going in against the word of one of the legendary composers of all time. If it simply were one man's word against another, who do you think wins? At the very least, the judge couldn't blame a newspaper for something so inconclusive. So it went beyond that.

Talk is talk. Excuses like Barry was weak from being sick, he was uncomfortable in a public forum, the sun was in his eyes ... none of that stuff explains him allegedly coming up with sessions that could not have happened and supposedly testimony he himself had to back away from.

All I'm saying is that let's give Norman his due. He felt strongly enough about this that he brought forward his case and won. People are going to believe what they want to believe and believe you me that was my strong going in position and I was stunned when Norman won the case (even though the James Bond Theme doesn't seem Barryesque).

Continued shots at Norman now seem rather partisan.

You state I am incorrect but at the same time reiterate exactly what I said. The Court Case was NOT an offical who wrote the Jame Bond Theme case but a Suit against a Newspaper.

Bond Theme Writer wins damages

I guess I'll go feed some cattle on my ranch here in Texas and be sure'n learn me some Bond Knowledge. *SPIT* DING!

Jason,

You did say things I agree with, but stating that authorship of the James Bond theme was "peripheral" to the trial is incorrect. It was the centerpiece issue in which the whole trial hinged on.

The Sunday Times slandered Norman by claiming he (in essence) took John Barry's actual composition as his own. The Sunday Times supposedly felt that they were only reporting the debate of the matter. Whether they did or didn't report it fairly only becomes pertinent if they didn't report the truth. After all, if the jury believed that John Barry really did write the music, the trial would not have gone Norman's way.

So, for Norman to win the thing he had to bring his case forward that he wrote the James Bond Theme and that the Sunday Times' reporting was unbalanced. He proved both points to the Jury.

Time for me to go check on the cows .... Got Milk?

John Barry certainly made a very significant contribution to the arrangement of the James Bond theme. But there's barely anything in the parts he's supposed to be responsible for that's not just a jazzed-up version of sections of Monty Norman's original Bad Sign, Good Sign tune.

So, I think it was a bit disingenuous of Barry to have claimed that he wrote it himself.

I would equate his involvement with that of a music producer, rather than a composer, really.

I just found this site on the court case and it's very interesting. Lawsuit

I think it's very interesting that Norman wanted full credit of the theme. It's really a mess with all the notes and witnesses and diary entries lol.

Though I enjoyed his Bond films well enough, I'm glad that Eon broomed Brosnan. I'm sure he could've pulled off at least one more entry in the series, but he was sort of "Syntheti-Bond" to me, cynically calculated to be all Bonds to all people (tough but sensitive, comedic yet taciturn), but lacking the gravity of both Connery's pre-DIAMONDS ARE FOREVER James Bond, and Lazenby's portrayal (despite his lack of acting experience) in OHMSS (the last "real" 007 movie, in my estimation), as well as Dalton's, though his two films were slightly marred by some residual goofiness left over from the Roger Moore years.

Though Clive Owen as 007 would've potentially been a perfect match, I'm all for Daniel Craig, who I think will bring James Bond back to a more Connery/Lazenby/Dalton mode. Ugly? Not especially. More like "rough-hewn", but that's a good thing. His acting chops are solid. Maybe it's just me, but in Craig's CASINO ROYALE promo picture, his eyes seem to resemble Robert Shaw's (circa 1963), which is also quite cool. I'm very much looking forward to CASINO ROYALE.

???

I would love for Michael Giacchino to get a crack at the Bond Score. I loved his Barryesque Incredibles soundtrack.

Yeah, I agree, a Michael Giacchino score would be outstanding. I hope David Arnold, if he's still got a lock on scoring CASINO ROYALE, sheds his prediliction for techno, and delivers a lush, orchestral jazz score.

IMDB has Giacchino on credit for Casino Royale. Whether that's studio imput or just some overzealous fan, I'm not sure...

I'm sure the techno influences in Arnold's scores are due to the producers request, after all he has written many traditional orchestral scores as well. His first Bond score for TND is still a fan favorite, and it seems the makers just want him to repeat it again and again.

Interesting. This actually is one of my favorite scores. In fact "Flight Into Space" is arguably my very favorite piece in a Bond film.

Flight into Space is terrific - it matches the scene so well. I think Barry has done some good work with space scenes as I would say that YOLT's Capsule In Space is also excellent.