Star Trek VI transfer AR (UPDATE: Martin Blythe responds! see msg. 103) - Page 4

I can't wait to get mine!

Exactly. Many notable music composers only stopped revising their scores when they died. In fact, composers like Mozart and Berlioz reworked their scores so they could take advantage of new and improved instruments.

This idea of the fans having final cut authority and thinking that they know what the director's vision should be is ludicrous.

Also, Baroque composers like Bach and Handel would rework their scores to accomodate the abilities of the particular group performing. Messiah was revised so many times, determining the definitive version is difficult to say the least. And then there is the matter of Bruckner's revisions to his symphonies; that's a huge quagmire, although many of those revisions were at the behest of well-meaning but misguided friends. Bruckner was somewhat lacking in self-confidence you see. But the point is that composers are probably the ones that fiddle with their works the most; we cut people like Brahms slack but not Nicholas Meyer? What gives?

I'm a tiny bit disappointed that ST:VI still hasn't gotten a 2.35:1 transfer, but I'm glad that it's finally received a decent DVD release. The 'flashes of conspirators' addition is a bit cheesy (it certainly made me go "Huh? Whazzat?"), but the movie still stands tall as one of the best in the series. The presentation of the DVDs leaves a lot to be desired when compared to the previous releases (white Alpha case, upside-down disc artwork, no insert); thankfully the discs themselves contain quality Trek goodness.

Bruckner gets his own special category when it comes to revisions.

I can. Ever read any stories about how D.W. Griffith would attend screenings of his films and re-edit them right there? Birth of a Nation was later re-edited for every major release it had. And while Griffith may have been an eccentric, he was far from the only filmmaker who recut his own films. Alternate versions of films were often released as a matter of course during the start of the sound era, with some theatres getting A-roll sound-on-film footage, others getting B-roll silent footage, etc. As is often disucssed here at HTF, Charlie Chaplin re-cut the vast majority of the feature films he directed. While you give a short list of various films that have been modified in recent years, a competent film historian could give you a list limited to pre-1980 revisions that would blow your list out of the water.

The changes to films in the last 7 or 8 years seems more glaring for a few reasons:
- The heightened scrutiny that directors get (the auteur theory wasn't a glimmer in anyone's eye in Griffith's day)
- The spread of home video, making changes to film seem more permanent
- Our own awareness of the situation (how many on this forum followed the alterate versions of Birth of a Nation as they were released from 1915 to the 1930s?)

It's all nothing new. The critical mass that the situation appears to have achieved only in recent years is an optical illusion.

DJ

For all of you folks discussing revisions, I have but one word:

[rant]Greedo.[/rant]

So, that revision alone is proof that filmmakers shouldn't be allowed to revise their films?

That's not even a major revision. Why does everyone have a problem with the Greedo scene, yet not the re-instated Jabba the Hutt scene that is redundant? 3 minutes vs. a 4 second revision.

Seth:

"The what?! Please explain."

Most non-US territories got ST4 with a prologue made up of footage from ST2 & 3 and new music and Kirk voice-over.

It was intended to bring the 'newbies' up to speed on what had been happening in the Trek universe prior to them walking in the door to see the "Funny Trek movie with the whales."

I don't check this forum for four days and all hell breaks loose? For the record, the transfer was supervised and approved by Nick Meyer and the aspect ratio is approx 2:1 at his direction. We generally defer to directors and cinematographers on this issue.

Derek Germano was the only one to get it right when he alluded to the film originally being released in 70mm as well as 35mm. I'm simplifying this a bit but the 70mm was our guide to what we wanted the new disc to look like and that roughly converts to 2:1.

Others are right about some limited reframing - Nick is very happy with the results and he's going to do two in-store DVD signings for those who are interested: Borders Westwood in Los Angeles on 1/27 (7:30PM) and Borders San Rafael in San Francisco on 1/31 (4PM). You're all welcome!

Memo to Bolus: what press release ever referred to this DVD being a 2.35:1? We don't mention aspect ratios for the very reasons discussed in this thread - it's too confusing.

Martin-- one word. NICE! I'm there at the Borders signing. Looking forward to this disc.

Martin, that just reinforces how valuable your presence is. Thanks for setting the record straight!

M.

This is why I love the industry connections with this forum. Thanks, Martin.

Martin, thanks for clearing it up. I had confidence that's what happened, Paramount's done a great job with the Trek SEs, I didn't think you guys would mess up now, but the clarification is much appreciated nonetheless.

Seth, that was priceless, pure comedy gold.

Damin,

I am not a film historian, however, I doubt there has been a period of time where such significant movies have been altered. We are talking about several films of the AFI Top 100 list here. THERE IS a definite trend (re)surfacing in the last several years. It's been discussed by other directors and film people. Your hypothetical list (that you admittingly imply you can't provide) is irrelavent to the recent trend that has been happening with recent popular movies.

I have no doubt that George Lucas' re-work of Star Wars: SE in 1997 have ignited all of this revisionism and new cuts that we are seeing. This is quite obvious and not an illusion. The old expression, "Don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining" applies here.

Furthermore, your hostile tone in which you debate is really uncalled for. I see this in many of your posts and I'm sure others will agree with me. Why not drop the "smartass" attitude and remarks that encourage hostility in one way or another? It doesn't really impress me, nor prove much. Know what I mean?

But the Bits review mentions that the movie shouldn't show any bars on a "properly calibrated" set. Shouldn't a "properly calibrated" set have no overscan?

Er, doesn't the original extended edition of Star Trek VI (the 1992 VHS/LD release) predate the 1997 Star Wars SE? Heck, maybe Star Trek VI started "all of this revisionism."

This is called an "argument from false authority." (i.e. "I'm not a doctor, but I play one of TV.")

Thanks for coming through for us, Martin!

I knew you would.

Gone with the Wind was re-framed to widescreen in the 1960's and in Eastmancolor. David O. Selznick supposedly liked the different color cast of the 1950's re-release.

The Gold Rush was slightly re-edited, scored, and given narration by Charlie Chaplin in the 1940's.

Modern Times had a short bit of a scene deleted for general release.

The Wizard of Oz was edited quite a bit after previews to its current form.

Stanley Kubrick re-edited and altered 2001: A Space Odyssey after previews to its current form.

E.T. was altered for its 2002 re-release by Steven Spielberg.

Star Wars... never mind.

Dances With Wolves has been restored to its initial "director's cut" by Kevin Costner.

Amadeus has been restored to its initial "director's cut" by Milos Forman.

The Wild Bunch has been edited back to its original version (as originally intended by Sam Peckinpah)

Close Encounters of the Third Kind has been altered twice by Steven Spielberg.

Francis Ford Coppola has extended Apocalypse Now considerably.

D.W. Griffith edited Birth of a Nation into a myriad of forms from 1915 to 1930.

A Streetcar Named Desire was restored to the original form recently.

Fantasia, It's a Wonderful Life, Frankenstein, and All Quiet on the Western Front were altered (and subsequently restored) by studios.

A little belated, but welcome to the forum, Richard...!

And on what do you base this? Surely not a serious historical inquiry into the subject.


I can't provide it? OK, let's have some fun. Here's a starting guide to films that had modifications made to them before "the last seven or eight years," which you pointed to as the period of time for this "new" trend:

2001: A Space Odyssey
The Alamo
The Birth of a Nation
A Clockwork Orange
Close Encounters of the Third Kind
Fantasia
Frankenstein
The Godfather
The Godfather Part II
The Gold Rush
Gone With the Wind
Intolerance
It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World
King Kong
Lawrence of Arabia
M*A*S*H
Metropolis (1927)
Modern Times
Napoleon (1927 - rumored to have up to 19 different versions)
Nosferatu (1922)
The Phantom of the Opera (1925)
The Shining
Spartacus
Strangers on a Train
Sunshine
Vertigo

Even this list of 25 or so barely does the topic justice (and, amazingly, we're talking about several films of the AFI Top 100 list here!). Try doing some research of your own into the topic and see what you come up with. Find out, for example, how many films during the silent era had alternate versions. Find out how many films during the beginning of the sound era had alternate versions. Find out how many films when roadshows were popular had alternate versions. Find out something, as it appears you're just making guesses as of right now.



My list is extremely relevant to debunk your claim (echoed often by others whenever these topics come up) that what's going on now is somehow different than what has come before. It's pure myopia.

DJ

Thank you, Mr. Blythe, from the newbee. That's interesting information.





And thank you, Dave!

Thank you very much for the confirmation, Mr. Blythe. We really appreciate your input. As others have said, it's wonderful to have people in the industry communicating with the fans. Thanks again!

I can confirm that it was definitely produced for the overseas markets. The initial home video release of IV contained this prologue, which runs about four minutes long. It also had some new music composed by Leonard Rosenman integrated with music from the soundtrack score. It even had a reversal of the title to where it read "The Voyage Home: Star Trek IV", and instead of the transporter effect used to bring the logo on screen, they used the whale probe as the basis of the logo, in all block letters and not the "Star Trek" font that's become familiar. Too bad that it wasn't included as a little bonus extra in the 2-disc SE of IV last year.

Thanks for the advice, Damin.

Star Wars, E.T., Apoc. Now, Alien (even though Ridely Scott stated his stance on this one - FOX was pushing this for a theatrical re-release and needed something 'new' which further supports my point here), The Exorcist? In how many years time? Pretty good guesses. Are you denying these aren't large films? Are you denying these haven't been re-released in the last several years? Why all of a sudden do we see these particular movies? Why weren't they done sooner? Do you not see something happening?

They weren't done sooner because DVD didn't exist. Some fillmakers and studios view DVD in particular to allow such change.
Revise a classic movie; release it to the theater as "Fully Restored"; then release it on DVD.

This IS a growing trend in the last several years with large films. I suspect it will continue particularly with DVD as many filmmakers view this as another means (at least, in part) for revision.

I don't mean to state that revising films has never been done before. But, something is definitely going on and DVD helps further this.