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Fantasia question - Page 2

post #31 of 64
Please, can anyone confirm whether international DVD versions of Fantasia are zoomed in or cleansed? (I have the anthology set, but I'd buy an international version too if it's unaltered)
post #32 of 64
Fantasia is a region 1-only title. However, it's been uncut on some European TV networks. So, there ARE video masters without censorship.
post #33 of 64
Quote:
Believe it or not, the "Quick Fantasia Fact Sheet" from the 1990 Re-Release provided to the Daily Texan (student newspaper of the University of Texas). It was included with the full press kit, and said the original optical tracks were recorded down to a single mono track via a telephone line.


I made the same mistake when I used that reference for an article I wrote for Animato! many years ago. Later, when I re-read that press kit, I found that it doesn't expressly state that the phone line transfer was a single mono mixdown. The wording of the press kit (which is NOT right in front of me at the moment) could be interpreted to mean that EACH Fantasound track was so dubbed individually. The point of that sentence was to identify the source of a hum that was present in the audio of every subsequent reissue (until 1990), so if they weren't too precise about the number of phone line transfers I can forgive them.

Granted, it STILL could be interpreted as a mono mixdown, but given the above, the 1990 press kit can't be relied upon to definitively nix the potential survival of discrete Fantasound tracks in some form.
post #34 of 64
Quote:
Fantasia is a region 1-only title.


That must come as a surprise to all of the British citizens who have bought the R2 UK disc over the last 3 years (which, incidentally, is the same version as the US disc).

DJ
post #35 of 64
Whoops...

DVD Aficionado didn't list an R2 DVD, so I assumed there wasn't one.
post #36 of 64
Thread Starter 
So the region 2 DVD is cersored just like the region 1 DVD correct?
post #37 of 64
Quote:
So the region 2 DVD is cersored just like the region 1 DVD correct?


Yes. From all reports, the R2/R4 releases are all the same version as the R1 release.

DJ
post #38 of 64
<<Granted, it STILL could be interpreted as a mono mixdown, but given the above, the 1990 press kit can't be relied upon to definitively nix the potential survival of discrete Fantasound tracks in some form.>>

No, you're absolutely right. I was a 20 year old college student when Fantasia was re-released in 1990, and I was not the most informed person on the face of the Earth on the subject of film audio. But for the last 13 years, my understanding of what happened to the original FantaSound tracks was shaped by what I understood from that information in that press kit. So the fault is most likely a combination of bad wording and a 20 year old not really understanding the full dimensions of what he was reading. So, I'm taking some of the blame. Besides, John Culhane's Fantasia explicity states in one sentence that the original tracks were mastered to stereo (not mono) in 1956, and I've had that book since I was 16.
post #39 of 64
Not to be argumentative, but I do have to wonder about how carefully you guys who were misled by that press release ever listened to the soundtrack, either on the laserdisc or any of the audio-only releases? As I said before, being familiar with it for over 40 years, I've always know it to be true stereo, albeit highly unconventional in its movement of instruments and orchestral sections from channel to channel. That's why the first claims to the contrary that I saw (I think it was in a Usenet newsgroup message from Mr. Pennington, as a matter of fact) came as such a surprise, and prompted me to do that comparison I mentioned and to post my initial response at that time.
post #40 of 64
I own the first pressing of the Fantasia soundtrack on LP, as well as the 1970's re-issue on LP, as well as the 1982 digital score, on CD and LP. The extreme stereo pans on the old versions of the Stokowski soundtracks sounded like someone playing with a balance knob during the mastering process. I'm quite familiar with it.
post #41 of 64
Phew! Okay. Thanks to our forum member Stephen from the Great White North and his unbelievably astute memory for dates , I have been able to track down the American Cinematographer article from February 1991 concerning the restoration of the FANTASIA soundtrack.

Here are some excerpts from the article by David Heuring and George Turner:

On how the original tracks were recorded.

Quote:
Eight push-pull RCA ultra-violet variable area optical recording channels were utilized with as many as 33 microphones. Close pickups of violins, cellos and basses, violas, brass, woodwinds and tympani were recorded on six separate channels. A mixture of these channels was recorded on the seventh channel, and a distant pickup of the entire orchestra was registered on the eighth channel. These channels were combined to produce three push-pull tracks. A special optical printer was developed to print the three tracks side by side along with a fourth track on sound track film. The fourth track, which was made after the final recordings of the three program tracks had been made, was an automatic control device consisting of a composite recording of three different oscillator frequency tones. Each control tone was rectified and provided a gain-controlling element for the amplifiers.

On the speaker setup.

Quote:
Three separate multi-speaker systems embodying a total of 36 loudspeaker units were placed on the stage at left, center and right. Each consisted of four large high frequency baffles fed by eight low frequency speakers and one large cellular high frequency horn fed by four high frequency speakers. The additional untis used at the Broadway Theatre consisted of two additional 50-watt power amps, each of which drives 22 small speakers mounted on the sides, back and ceiling. The installation was varied according to the needs of the various auditoriums.

On re-mixer Terry Porter's restoration efforts.

Quote:
Source material was woefully deteriorated. The performances, conducted and overseen by Stokowski, were finished to nitrate optical playback beginning in 1938. Because of nitrate's inherent instability, a transfer was made in 1955 to magnetic tape. This 35 year-old transfer was Porter's source -- so far, so good.
There was a problem, however. After the Fantasound roadshow toured the country, much of the equipment had been dismantled and contributed to the war effort. By 1955, the only available Fantasound playback system was being stored at the RCA building in Burbank, which had yet to be equipped with the new 35mm magnetic recording equipment. Disney, however, was so equipped.
"It was someone's decision at the time to make the transfer from the RCA building to Disney over phone lines," says Porter, incredulous. "So the source I had to deal with came from a disintegrating nitrate optical that was in poor condition, was made with magnetic recorders -- a technology in its infancy -- and was transferred over phone lines! So we had a lot of problems with the three-track master. It's easy to see why in 1981 they said it was impossible to restore."

Porter on the panning aspects of the sound.

Quote:
"My partner (Mel Metcalfe) and I were tempted at times to do a little 1990's work to some crude forms of panning that they did," he admits, "but we stayed away from that. This is a piece of history, something that they did 50 years ago. Our goal was to present it in 1990 like an audience would have heard it in 1940. And we stuck by our guns on that."

It seems that Porter did sweeten things just a bit.

Quote:
"One of the criteria (Disney and Stokowski) set up for the road show presentation of Fantasound was that the auditorium must have hard walls and a long reverb time. This would result in a natural reverb decay in the room that would soften all the pans. While the left speaker was coming in, you still could hear the right one trailing off.
"Of course, in 1990, theaters are constructed to be as dead as possible. So I added back what I thought was a suitable amount of natural reverb, using a concert hall program on my 480. It works well -- the sharp pans are kind of rounded out a little bit. That was the only thing that I felt justified in adding to the original."

On recreating the surround effects.

Quote:
The three track magnetic transfer told Porter how the music panned across the front of the screen, and the dynamic range -- where it was loud and where it was soft. But there was no recorded example for the three-way speaker system positioned in the rear of the roadshow auditorium.
"I found a real coup in the music archives," he recalls. "I found Stokowski's original score sheets, with handwritten notes on them explaining note by note, phrase by phrase, where the music was to go. It would say, 'Left wall, rear wall, kill the fronts' for a certain passage. It was a complete map to exactly what they did in the auditorium."


Most of the remainder of the article is technical details about the software and equipment used for noise reduction, etc. I guess the main points that can reasonably be made from the information in this article are
  • The original sound stems are lost or simply missing.
  • The 1990 restoration was indeed made from a copy of the 3-track master that had been transferrered over telephone lines to magnetic film.
  • The magnetic copy was indeed multichannel and not mono.
  • The surround information was recreated from notes as opposed to a physical represenation.

As far as the current dvd is concerned, I'm not sure how much of the 1990 restoration is utilized. There is obviously a new mix as the Deems Taylor narration has been re-recorded and the orchestra segments use footage that was not present in the 1990 version. Was the additional orchestra sound remixed in 1990 or was that done for the dvd? If so, did they start from the same magnetic source as the 1990 restoration or another source? Things to ponder, I guess.

I have a friend who manages the pre-1950's Disney negatives. I'll email him and see what original material still exists for the film. If I hear anything, I'll be sure to let you all know.
post #42 of 64
Quote:
Not to be argumentative, but I do have to wonder about how carefully you guys who were misled by that press release ever listened to the soundtrack

You're right; at the time I was unfamiliar with the lack of subtlety in directionalization that was common in the early days of multichannel mixing. The second I heard what I thought was mere pan-potting my ears stopped paying close enough attention to catch any discrete differences between channels.

Quote:
That's why the first claims to the contrary that I saw (I think it was in a Usenet newsgroup message from Mr. Pennington, as a matter of fact) came as such a surprise...


Yes, I remember that thread, and it was your assertion, Paul, that prompted me to re-read the press kit (although the thread was probably long gone before I came across the material in my *ahem* "archives" again).

Amazingly, in all these years I have yet to carefully re-listen to the soundtrack with this in mind, (perhaps tonight!), but until I do I've no reason not to trust YOUR ears.

Thanks for that last post, Brian! That certainly clears things up a bit.
post #43 of 64
Slightly off topic here, but still concerning Fantasia, I discovered a couple of years back that the 1990 CD release of the soundtrack is Dolby Surround encoded. It makes for an interesting comparison with the 5.0 tracks on the DVD.
post #44 of 64
Re: phone line transmission of the Fantasia soundtrack.

There are (and were) different kinds of phone lines. We're all familiar with the extremely limited frequency response of the typical voice line, but even back then the phone company had higher-bandwidth lines for specialized purposes. It was the latter kind used for the Fantasia soundtrack transmission to Disney's magnetic tape recorders. Even the pre-restored version on the LPs sound much better than what you'd get through an ordinary voice phone line.
post #45 of 64
Quote:
You're right; at the time I was unfamiliar with the lack of subtlety in directionalization that was common in the early days of multichannel mixing.

The use of those extreme motion effects was actually a deliberate artistic decision; they wanted the sound to follow the motion on the screen. The experimental high-fidelity stereo recordings the Bell Labs made of portions of live concerts with Stokowski and the Philadelphia Orchestra in 1932 (that's right, 1932!) were much more conventional, the intention being to capture the natural directionality heard in the hall. I'm lucky to have picked up a c.1980 2-LP set of these, and they're truly astonishing. Almost literally like taking a trip in the Wayback Machine.

Quote:
Amazingly, in all these years I have yet to carefully re-listen to the soundtrack with this in mind, (perhaps tonight!), but until I do I've no reason not to trust YOUR ears.

Be sure to try it with headphones, if possible. In addition to the discrete positioning of specific sounds, it's the overall three-dimensional ambiance of the sound that's always convinced me of the multi-channel authenticity of the recording. It's not the kind of thing that could be synthesized through filtering or manipulating phase, especially with the technology available back then.

Finally, it wasn't my intention to come down too hard on either Mr. Pennington or Mr. Rister; I can fully understand how the highly unconventional motion effects on the track could lead one to believe that they were the result of latter-day pan-potting.

And I'll add my thanks to Brian Kidd for those American Cinematographer quotes.
post #46 of 64
I got an email from my buddy in the vaults and he says that all he has is a protection copy of the soundtrack material. However, he's checking with Disney to see what materials are extant. I'll let you all know if I hear anything more.
post #47 of 64
Just in case anyone was ever interested.

Harvey Fletcher was the supervisor of the acoustic group at Bell Laboratories who originally developed multi-channel sound in the late 1920s. He's the one who recorded the Philadelphia Orchestra with Stokowski, and got him interested in recording.

Harvey Fletcher was also the first president of the American Acoustical Society.

My grandfather.
post #48 of 64
Quote:
Harvey Fletcher was the supervisor of the acoustic group at Bell Laboratories who originally developed multi-channel sound in the late 1920s. He's the one who recorded the Philadelphia Orchestra with Stokowski, and got him interested in recording.
My grandfather.

Cool! He is, in fact, mentioned in the background material in the liner notes of those LPs I mentioned.
post #49 of 64
Thanks for clearing that up for me Ernest.
post #50 of 64

Fantasia - Where are the Walt Disney Interviews???

I just got around to purchasing the 60th anniversary edition from a third party seller on Amazon. It was cheap, but came without a case. I checked out the back cover on DVD empire and it lists "Rare Archival Interviews With Walt Disney -- Spanning 3 Decades!." All I see on the menu is Audio Commentaries and "The Making Of Fantasia" Featurette. No Walt Disney interviews exist!!! The disc art says 6oth Anniversary and the menus and such are all genuine. But did I get some kind of bootleg, is there an Easter Egg or is it just a defective disc that was recalled?
post #51 of 64

Re: Fantasia question

Gunther,

One of the commentary tracks contains vintage and recreated (from meeting notes) interviews with Walt. Also the documentary has a few snippets of interviews with Walt.

-R
post #52 of 64

Re: Fantasia question

Thanks for the info Reagan! I'll check it out this weekend.
post #53 of 64

Re: Fantasia question

One must wonder if and when Disney finally bothers to do a Platinum edition release of Fantasia will it be uncensored?
post #54 of 64

Re: Fantasia question

While I agree in substance with most of the views expressed here - especially those of Ernest Rister - I feel that many of these movies were made during the then current political, social, and cultural climes of the times. As such I feel they are historically significant (from a film making point of view at least) and should be made available to those of us who desire the originals.

I'm sorry that I can't find the link to a site that had some info regarding Song Of The South where it was stated that the NAACP presently has no issue with the movie especially when, in 1948, an honorary Academy Award for his role as Uncle Remus was bestowed upon James Baskett. Zip-A-Dee-Doo-Dah was an Academy Award winning song. As of 4/15/08 there are 125,278 signatures on a petition to have this wonderful movies released in the U.S. Perhaps Disney could do this as one of their ltd. Walt Disney Treasures tins and have Leonard Maltin explain the controversy surrounding this movie with an appropriate disclaimer, if necessary. This delightful movie with its wonderful soundtrack should not be kept from Disney fans.

Wasn't something cut from Dumbo as well?

It seems a shame that one has to turn to Europe in order to purchase original, uncut movies made by an American icon of a company.

Brad
post #55 of 64

Re: Fantasia question

The "Jim Crow" sequence (my terminology) certainly wasn't cut from Dumbo...it has always struck me as hypocritical or at the very least odd that Disney finds such offense with all of these other sequences in their various films and shorts, to the point of cutting/altering them to protect impressionable young children, but these obvious racially stereotyped characters remain untouched.
post #56 of 64

Re: Fantasia question

I'd like to see Fantasia get the "Walt Disney Treasures" treatment, with the original scenes intact and a disclaimer, a la Disney on the Front Lines and how it dealt with the propaganda films.

I too agree that the studio's stance on potentially offensive material has been scattershot. For example, was the smoking sequence removed from the Brave Little Tailor? How about the "Chinese Cat" in the Aristocats or the Siamese cats in Lady and the Tramp?

Let's get one thing straight before you all decide to flame me: I do not condone censorship in any way, shape or form. Disney is no different than the MPAA in this regard, as censorship decisions in both cases have been arbitrary.
Censorship doesn't work; the only thing that works is to be aware of content and to take the time to preview material before letting your kids watch it.

*Gets off soapbox*
post #57 of 64

Re: Fantasia question

It would be really neat to have a boxset of all the various versions of Fantasia. Didn't the early 80's reissue have a totally rerecorded Dolby Stereo soundtrack?
post #58 of 64

Re: Fantasia question

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverWook
It would be really neat to have a boxset of all the various versions of Fantasia. Didn't the early 80's reissue have a totally rerecorded Dolby Stereo soundtrack?

It sure did, and it was widely criticized at the time for not quite matching the animation as well as the original soundtrack.

I saw it in a theater and really loved it. This was my first experience with the entire FANTASIA. (Lots of other changes were made to the film in the print I saw including losing the Deems Taylor narration).

I went right out after I left the theater and bought the new soundtrack LP. Whether it matched the visuals well or not, the recording was quite marvelous.
post #59 of 64

Re: Fantasia question

Yes, I too had that re-recorded soundtrack LP and it was, at the time, one of the better Digital recordings I had heard, very robust. The Rite Of Spring in particular blew you right out of your seat.
I think I still have it in a box somewhere.
post #60 of 64

Re: Fantasia question

I'd love to find another copy of the Irwin Kostel soundtrack since my 2-casette set of it disappeared many moons ago (since then I've made do with the sonically inferior 1990 release).
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