Seperates vs. receiver - Page 2

Chris

With amps as with receivers there is good quality and bad quality. It is unwise to thinks that going the seperates route = instant quality. It is true that the levels of quality you can obtain with high end seperates is beyond the reach of receivers but it is also true that high end receivers will outperform cheap separate combinations.

Robert

A u d i o g o n . c o m

I would've said:

S V S U B W O O F E R S . C O M

NickSP:

Just out of curiousity - which receivers would you consider better (pre-pro wise) over the Rotel 1066 or Outlaw 950?

Ernest

I think that the McIntosh MHT200 receiver would beat most entry level amps like the Outlaw 950 as far as quality is concerned.

Robert

Ernest, I have tried many receivers as prepros and like the DA4ES although it required a lot of tweaking to achieve very good results but I would have probably gone with the NAD t752 had the 752 not had all those QC issues. I am currently using the Yamaha 1400 and the sound is very clean and not at all bright as in the older yammies. HT is very dynamic and music is very detailed so I am very happy with the 1400. The YPAO works great and it does wonders to unusually shaped room or accoustically challenged rooms. One thing about the Outlaw and the Rotel is I definitely liked the Outlaw better than the Rotel for HT and for music the Rotel did slightly better than the Outlaw. I think the Outlaw at $799 is the best dedicated prepro out there.

Nick - That was exactly my thinking. I'd like to separate and go separates but I was wondering how much improvement I would get from moving from my current platform of the DA4ES to the Outlaw 950 + some used ~$1000 amp(anthem,rotel,parasound - which I think I'm going to post about right after this)

Ernest,

Go for an external amp and keep the da4es. If you want to upgrade your processor then UPGRADE your processor. Going from the da4es (used as just a processor) to the Outlaw 950 is really not much more then a lateral if at all.

John - What do you think would be a noticable improvement over the DA4ES pre-pro wise and around or near the same price-point?

I thought the Outlaw 950 would be a step up b/c it's actually the rebadged Easttech pre-pro and other companies are marketing them for oodles more. I'm definitely open to new ideas and I definitely appreciate your input.

Ernest,

The same price point is a major sticking point. I guess it depends on what features you need/want. I can tell you that the Aragon soundstage was the cleanest, purist, sounding rockin/rollin, sheer dynamics pre-pro that I have had bar none. Its only a 5.1 pre-pro however (unless upgraded). If you shop around you can get one for around 1200 or so. There are many choices for great pre-pros with awesome sound IF you only need 5.1 (citation 7.0, EAD comes to mind)and can be had for cheap now...Your talking about 4000~5000 pre-pros when the first came out.

If on the other hand you want 7.1 and the latest and greatest you will have to step up to the plate(and save some Lincoln's) to get NOTICEABLE improvements imo..Something like the Anthem avm-20, Aragon Stageone(or upgraded soundstage),Lec mc-8, B/K ref 50, the new Integra to name a few.

PS...again, for 5.1 and two channel the Aragon Soundstage is INCREDIBLY dynamic/dead quiet/smooth.

Ernest, the true strength of a prepro lies in its ability to play 2 channel music. I still have to find anything at a decent price to match the 2 channel capabilities of my Proton prepro. The 1400 believe it or not is very close to sounding similar to some of the good prepros I've heard. The Outlaw would not give you any noticable differences over the 4ES as John said.
If you want to get into seperates then go with HK signature 2.0 or even a Lexicon DC-1 ($900 used) or a Lexicon MC-1 ($1200-1400 used) or even a B&K Ref 20 ($700 used).

So why bother? Use a dedicated stereo preamp or integrated amp for this.

How would the Lexicon MC-1 compare to the Aragon SoundStage?

I was originally seriously considering both companies but shopping around with a $2000 price point with the Sony offsetting that by $500-$600 led me to believe that I would get more improvement by allocating more funds the the amp and save a bit by the $700 Outlaw. But I guess what I'm picking up over the past 2-3 hours here is that the Outlaw is not really worthwhile for me to upgrade w/ my current equipment and that anything that will be noticably improved will cost me around the ~$1200 - which does me no good if I dont have a good amp to drive it and the speakers.

I'm also in a similar situation with separates vs a receiver. I mostly listen to HT these days and i am trying to decide between the HK525 and a used amp such as rotel or parasound or the HK 7200. I've heard that the amps on the HK 7200 are pretty good. Any thoughts? The speakers are B&W matrix 803's. Thanks

Ron

Having owned both the answer for me was easy. With a 5.1 system I went with the Aragon for its sheer dynamics and excellant two channel abilty (hard-pressed for any ht processor to beat the aragon in this catagory)...on the other hand if I had a 7.1 system I would go with the mc-1 of course for the excellant logic 7 processing.

Either way, youd have to get your amps first with these options. So get your "dream" amps if you possible can and worry about the processor down the road. Remember..A good amp will not change and could stay in your rack for years to come...Processors on the other hand are a faster technology and if you are one to want the latest and greatest, you may be changing processors after a couple of years anyhow.

You can buy a good value used amp and later when you sell it (even years from now)...you wont even lose any money on it.With a processor you will usually always lose money after a period of time.

IMO get a receiver if your budget is under 1500, and seperates for anywhere there after.

You might think about starting with a receiver and adding an outboard amp if you want more power.

DanielGM - I do have a receiver. And the budget isn't necessarily under $1500. I believe you need to read the entire thread. Or at least the last 20 posts to get fully updated on my situation. I do a appreciate any feedback though.

"But I guess what I'm picking up over the past 2-3 hours here is that the Outlaw is not really worthwhile for me to upgrade w/ my current equipment"

Ernest - try it you may like it! With the Outlaw 30 day full refund policy, an in-home trial is the way for you to hear and decide.

I replaced a Denon 3200 DD Receiver with the 950 and, for music, in the 950's bypass mode, it sounded better to me/wife. The 3200 was considered a decent receiver in its time ($1200 MSRP).

George Caronan
Chino Hills, California

George, we could be neighbors. Where in this fine city do you live? I'm up Eucalyptis, behind Ralphs.

Wow - talk about dead thread revival!!

It's pretty interesting to re-read this thread and see how far I've gone in terms of HT knowledge and seperates over the past 2 months.

For all that were concerned - I went for the Rotel 1066. Still looking for an amp to pair it w/ though. (Hopefully another Rotel or a Parasound).

Great choice. I really like my Parasound 2205A amp, but there are many others, including the Rotel. Everyone seems to love the Sherborne(sp) 5 channel amp. If you need 7 channels, Outlaw has 2 to choose from!

Club Rotel was down for a while due to server issues, but is up and running again, although a bit slower until a new perminent solution can be found. It still is by far the best resource for Rotel users. Here's a link.

As far as amps to go with your Rotel Ernest, I happen to know that the 1205A is an excellent match. Of course, a lot depends on the speakers you use, but I've used the combo on Klipsch Reference and ACI Essence/Sapphires/Emeralds and it handles the task very well for each system, which says something due to the wildly different sonic characteristics and efficiencies of Klipsch and ACI. Rotel amps obviously would be a fine choice too.

Whatever you do, become a member of Club Rotel as it is a great source of information and you can usually find links to any recent firmware upgrades through the good folk there.

Yeah- I've already been scoping out Club Rotel for a little bit now. I'm using these w/ Paradigm 40s - hopefully 100s in the near future!

Im looking for seperates to replace my old Denon now. What is your favorite 5 channel amp (at least 100watt per channel) and pre-amp? Lets see a 2k combo and lower and higher than 2k combo.

Re: Seperates vs. receiver

Okay guys, let's just cut to the chase on this very simple to answer question. A receiver (like a Denon, Onkyo, any brand etc. . .) is not going to perform as well as moderate and up priced separates. Of course this becomes irrelavent if your other components are mediocre to boot, as no matter how good of an amp one buys, it cannot overcome all the other possible weaknesses in components, room and speakers. But if all your components are mediocre and you don't plan to upgrade them, then perhaps there would be no additional reason to go with separate amps.

Secondly, a multi-channel amplifier is not going to sound as good as separates for either multi-channel or especially 2-channel performance. I have owned some of the most highly rated multi-channel amps (Conrad Johnson, Theta Dreadnaught II, Krell and even others) and not one of them could compare to a moderately priced amp (ie. the better amps in the $2,000 to $4,000+ range - never compared any of the above to anything less so can't comment). So I feel safe saying that I can find a stereo amp in even the bottom of this price range better than any of the above multi-channel amps, most definately for 2-channel, but also for HT.

Third, a receiver or even the very best of the pre/pros cannot perform as well as an equally priced and often less expensive 2-channel pre-amp on music. I have owned several pre/pro that are considered to be very good for 2-channel also. Most recently were the McIntosh MX 132 followed by a brand new Krell HTS 7.1 purchased in Dec. 08 with all the latest upgrades. Both are excellent pre/pros and both do a very commendable job on 2-channel. This being said, I have gone through 3 pre-amps (that I have owned within my system) that included a Cary SLP 2002, BAT VK5i and currently running an Aesthetix Calypso with very good tubes. None of these preamps are as expensive as either the Krell or McIntosh pre/pros and all three of these preamps far, far surpass the 2-channel performance of either prepro.

However, this does not mean 99% of the population cannot get totally acceptable, in fact lovable sound from a receiver. One must weigh what is important to them, what their budget is and what they would like to be able to achieve with that budget. If you have a total processor and amplifier budget of $2,000 or less, get a decent receiver or even better yet get a really good receiver from 2 years ago for 1/3 the price when it was new, this shouldn't cost you more than about $750-900. Then if you feel you want better performance, get a decent used 2-channel power amp for the main 2 speakers, which you will see the bigges improvement on with 2-channel music listening.

FWIW, I have also owned receiver, a Denon 480X and a B&K 507 S2 and this is factored into my comments on comparing the three main alternatives above.