WOW! How does SVS do it?!.... - Page 2

Robert,

Of course if you factor in the cost of tools you might not be able to build a SVS for the less.

However, it's an absurd comparison to do so. If you only count the sonotube, amp, driver, and other building materials you can build a superior speaker for less.

Seth

I respectfully disagree Seth, I don't think it's absurd as I have read enough posts in the past on almost every audio forum I've visited where someone wants to build a sub but can't allocate funds for tools as well. Budget is a primary force for many Diy and for some time as well and buying an item that might only cost $100-200 more from SVS, Adire, Hsu, and VMPS is very reasonable to many folks that lack both of the above as well as confidence in the skill of building a sub (right now I'm trying to build my second non-tube sub and it's not pretty). Don't forget there are also people out there who maybe shouldn't use tools as there's a chance of a health hazard that should also make them explore other options (of course imho, why they don't post in the Diy or hardware for sale to buy a used sub of the Diy caliber for a similar price is beyond me).

I definitely agree with you on just the cost of materials that one can be built that is superior, but to me the main advantages of Diy, other than the custom sub built to ones tastes, is when you upgrade or add a second sub you still have the tools and now have more experience to go to that next step up and still get performance that most people really can't imagine as they've never personally experience a good sub to begin with. I agree with you about trying to diy a sub as it's really the easiest speaker to build (esp the sonotube route) and will give the most bang for the buck, but for most this is usually an overlooked opportunity and unfortunately most will never know.

I agree with your points, Robert, and have made them a few times in the past. If someone is looking into DIY solely to save some money on a one-time deal, doesn't have the tools needed, and is merely looking for performance akin to a Dharman or lower-end SVS, then it's not really worth it. Most DIY-ers who actually approach their project with this mindset get bored quickly.
Certain subs in the cheaper brackets do make it difficult to justify DIY on price alone even with tools. The Adire Rava comes immediately to mind.

Yeah Jack, i ordered a Rava for a buddy of mine i set an HT up for... kick'n little sub... He's had it for about three weeks now and loves it. (especially for music).

Hi List

I am businessperson. It is interesting how people do not apprehend the concept of cost. Price is more easily grabbed. When one take all the parts in almost any speakers the total may not reach 30% of their retail price even with speakers being sold at 30,000. Suddenly people call this a 600% margin and next the manufacturer is stoned to death....

Well 30% represents the cost of parts but do you think they knew what parts to use just by accident? That means research, it involves time and money...
So how did they sell it? By advertising somehow, else no one would have known about it. Even taking it to a friend is advertising and involves time and money
They have to have someone to take the money from you.. This involves time and money.
They have to have someone to help you when the product does not perform... This involves time and money..
I could add a lot more examples to make the non-business person understand what it takes to run a business and to have them understand that the price of the equipment can not simply the cost of the parts... This is like saying that because the software is on a 10 cents CD-ROM it should not be worth more than a quarter....

The hobbyist who does it by her/himself, invest his/her time and money in the final products. He/She may become very adept at it. He/she would have invested his/her time and money... Often a lot more than anticipated ( You may have to factor the botched experiments, the bad parts, the long distance phone calls, the hours of frustration, etc). You would have invested Time and Money

There is no free lunch> you may not realize the trues costs but EVERYTHING has a cost and it is not the sum of the most visible parts...

Now I need to give these SVS a serious listen . I have only heard great things about them and the prices are right... Are they that good?


Frantz Mathias
Port-au-Prince, Haiti

Frantz, great post! I wish more people thought like you do.

"Are they that good?" YES!

Frantz...are they that good....ummm..HELL YES! try one for 45 days...if ya don't agree, send it back

Hi

I live outside the USA. It is not very easy to send anything back , this is both good and bad. I can not "impulse-buy". My purchases have to be carefully researched.
I must tell you that I will try to hear an SVS as soon as possible. I am a purist and love music. I want to be convinced that they perform as well with purely music material especially classical.

Let me know guys. Learning a lot from this Forum

Frantz

Frantz:

I have listened to quite a few classical recordings of Beethoven, Mozart, Vivaldi and Bach and I am here to say that for these recordings the SV Sub shines. The Brandenberg Concertos and Beethoven's 9th are particular favorites of mine.

An SV sub is a very "musical" subwoofer. By that I mean it doesn't add anything to the music through coloration. It just reproduces the sub bass that you send it it very very well.

I hope you are able to audition one in the US soon. You will never realize what you have been missing in your system until you add one of these fine woofs.

Parker

Parker & Others,

I have been communicating with Tom V. via e-mail about adding a 25-39 PCi to my system. I currently have all Paradigm's with the PW-2200 as the sub. After hearing this with my system about ten days ago during a Local HTF Meet that we had at my house, I decided right then and there that I wanted one of these babies.

I am not unhappy with the PW-2200, but it just doesn't go as low or as loud as the SVS. Tom thinks the combination of the SVS and Paradigm subs would be real nice. I am even considering selling the PW-2200, but if the two together sound good, why take a bath on my fairly new Paradigm!

Any thoughts on this from anyone!!

nevermind!

Alan:

I would take Tom's suggestion and keep the 2200 and run it with the 25-39 PCI. Then take the 2200 out of the picture and see if you notice that much of a difference. I would run the two of them together for a couple of weeks. Then take out the 2200 and see if the low bass dynamics have changed dramatically.

Personally I believe you will really prefer the sound of a two sub system. You can never have to much low bass.

Parker

[Cost/Price/...]

People understand cost just fine. Numerous things add to the cost of commercial product that add zero value for someone with a modicum of woodworking skills, basic tools, and a few hours they'd otherwise spend watching TV.

Lacking that, a commercial product certainly makes more sense than doing it poorly. Likewise if you'd rather just pay and spend your time doing something else, that's certainly an option, but that costs time as well - at work where the government takes a cut too...

Either way, its just a driver in a box.

Reality is that proven designs are available 'no time or effort invested' for quality drivers at various price points far below comparable completed products. Of course there are additional costs to vendors offering a finished product, but if you can build a decent box to spec and install a quality driver, they only increase cost, not add value.

Someone's bound to launch in on 'customer service...', but remember - its just a driver in a box. A massive wooden box is about the lowest-tech piece of 'equipment' this side of a pile of rocks. If you can't build one right, its no game for you. If you can, that's all there is to it, and purchased correctly the driver comes with all the warrantee, support, etc. you could ever need.

But I'm preaching to the choir on one hand and 'spouting nonsense' on the other, not much sense in going on either way...

George,

I think I am following you just fine!

Methinks GeorgeS should go into the Speaker/subwoofer business.

I thought Frantz put it extremely well, and did not belittle DIY in the least. DIY certainly will save you lots. George, I think you should also mention the the pride you'll feel from doing it yourself!

But we all have to decide what to spend our time on. I don't have the room to do that kind of work, have enough tools already and don't really want to get into woodworking - I don't have enough time for the projects I already have. I prefer to spend my tinkering time with my bicycles - my idea of a hands-on project is to build a set of wheels. I just don't want to have to learn enough about matching drivers to volumes, ports (or not), and then wonder if I got it together right the first time. I'm willing to talk Q-factors, freewheels, gearing selection, drag brakes or not, etc. Some people just want to ride their bike - others may just want to listen to their music.

DIY is a fine answer. In time, if I get the right place, I'm retired and bored, maybe I'll want to build my own - may even try an IB to see how it turns out. But two years ago, living in an apartment, I was just glad to find what I did at the pricepoint I did. Never been disappointed, never felt cheated. Got what I expected, and more. (hey, at least I assemble my own cables and don't pay retail for them!)

But if you want to go DIY, you've still got to wade through all the anecdotal information out there - which plan or kit is the right one? I certainly don't know. And if I go through the expense of building it, will I be happy with what I did, or should I have tried something else? Do I have the right parts here? Heck, did I get the stain or paint on evenly? Was I impatient, put it together to see how it sounded, then took it apart to do the finishing and stripped out the screw heads just doing that work. There *are* frustrations that come with DIY to match the pride.

I was willing to pay their price for the ability to return it for just shipping costs, let them worry about the fit and finish, add a warantee (which they've shown they are willing to honor even when it looks like someone abused the poor beast). Much better than another company who who builds "the lowest-tech piece of 'equipment' this side of a pile of rocks," but won't back it up. That's something.

Eric

P.S. Mr. Bunge, you certainly have my respect as well.

For me, DIY is not about saving money, it's about avoiding the compromises inherent in every commercial sub which must be sold, shipped, etc. It's also about learning...so that these hardware forum sub threads make for great entertainment.