WOW! How does SVS do it?!....

ive had a CS+ for a week and i do listen to my fair share of hiphop. the bass is so tight and smooth that i hardly realize how loud it is until i walk out into the hallway.

Damn you guys...My SVS sub is only an hour away but they will not deliver till tomorrow.

I can not wait to get my bad boy SVS 25-31PCi hooked up and powered. Ill be throwing some Heavy Rock, Punk, Industrial and a bunch of House/Dance, and finally some Celtic/renaissance music at it to see what it can do... hehehe My neighbors will hate me from tomorrow on, either that or envy me...Muahahahhaha.

You can thank Team SVS who designed the PC+ and CS+ for sweating the details on sound quality.

According to Tom V, the amount of computer aided R&D that went into designing the TC Sounds dB12 driver was nothing short of astounding. This driver offers an amazing combination of price and performance and SVS is understandably coy about releasing the T/S parameters.

Add to that a proprietary enclosure tubing that is far denser, stronger, thicker, and more acoustically inert than sono-tube, 1.5" thick birch end caps, and you've got one very rigid and strong enclosure that can withstand being tossed from the roof of the SVS R&D facility without damage (don't ask me how I know this).

After modeling a whole slew of enclosure alignments and tunes, SVS takes it a step further and quite simply breaks out the tools and starts building prototypes - and they listen. And they don't stop building and listening - no matter how long it takes - until it sounds "right" in all respects. And only then does it get the nod for final build.

With a whole litany of sub DIY web sites and software like WinISD, it's pretty easy to design a vented sub that looks good on paper - making it sound GREAT is a whole other ball game, and this is where customers most benefit from the literally thousands of hours poured into the development of each SV sub.

Regards,

Ed

I recently held a HTF Meet at my house, and one of the guys brought his new 25-39 PCi SVS to swap out against my Paradigm PW-2200. That SVS blew me away!!

People here on the HTF tried to tell me about a year ago to go with a SVS, but I stubbornly insisted that I wouldn't buy it because I couldn't hear it first! Well now I've heard one, and I WANT ONE!!

What would a combination of these 2 subs sound like....?

I am curious, if SVS can do what they can do with their subs, then what about these guys?

http://www.mjacoustics.co.uk/mjacous...2ndcollage.pdf

http://www.mjacoustics.co.uk/mjacous...ducts/ref1.htm

Their tiny Pro 50 sub goes down to an astonishing 15hz!

While their Reference I goes down to a freaking 10hz!!

These MJ Acoustics are amazing for their price. Unfortunately, i cannot find a dealer here in the US.

They look like Rel wannabees, not entirely a bad thing. I use a Rel Strata III with my N804s, driven by a Bryston 4B ST. The combination works extremely well for 2 channel music

They are actually competing against the Rel products. It is very popular in UK. Unfortunately, I cannot audition them since there is no dealer here in the US. I read that their prices are even better than the Rels. I also learned from users in UK forums that many preferred the MJ Acoustics over the Rels. I am looking for a compact sub that would fit my room and the Rel Quake are the ones that fit, as much as I would like to get a HSU VTF-2 or SVS 25-31PCi. I am also looking at the Velodyne CHT-10.

Joey,

Why not check out the ACI Titan II? Many people prefer them to the REL's.

The problem I have with all these companies claiming small subs with < 20hz performance is none of them ever publish stats of what it does at 20 hz or any frequency graphs worth mentioning. Though I bet these would be great in small bedrooms or a RV it just seems to me that none of these from a scientific point of view (hoffman's iron law) would be capable of significant output due to the woofer size (10" diameter?), throw (most look to be lucky to do 10mm one way), sealed (one of the most inefficient ways to build a sub), and of course power (100w and being crippled by not even having a port or PR in most cases, in addition to the small boxes they're put in). I sometimes wonder when people gush about these subs if the individuals that love these have ever felt anything with real bass in their lives (ie shot a large caliber gun, near a big block chevy with glass packs, rode a harley, heard a pipe organ in real life, etc)

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see such things exist, and would be the first to apologize for my short-sighted views, but based on what I usually see on most of these websites (diy), based on modeling drivers, and building a few subs I think it's hard enough to get a 15" to do it right powered by a proamp it makes me wonder if people are more in love with the upper harmonics than with the tactile sensation that real bass is imho.

Amen, Robert. As the old saying goes, there's no substitute for cubic inches. And that goes for my AMERICAN SVS subwoofer, my hot rodded Harley, and you might as well throw in a few big bore shotguns while you're at it.

Yeah, and none of the subs that can meet your checklist use 10" drivers, 100W of power, sealed enclosures, or small boxes.

Seth

I don't know but it seems that most professional reviewers seems to agree on what some compact subs can do with such small drivers and with very low bass extension hitting below 20Hz. Small subs would definitely do with smaller rooms like mine where space is also a premium.

http://www.mjacoustics.co.uk/mjacous...o50reviews.htm
http://www.music-at-home.co.uk/html/spkrs/spkrs_mj.html

I have yet to audition the ff compact subs:

Rel Acoustics Quake (23Hz)
http://www.rel.net/products/Quake.shtml

Sunfire True Subwoofer Super Junior (22Hz)
http://www.sunfire.com/products/subsuperjr.shtml

Anthony Gallo Acoustics MPS-150 (24Hz)
http://www.anthonygallo.co.uk/mps150.html

ACI Force (20 Hz) - although this may be a little too big
http://www.audioc.com/speakers/Force/intro.htm

The Velodyne CHT-10 and ACI Titan II are also too big for my room.

Joey,

What they're not telling you is you don't get 110dB at 20Hz. A lot of sub makers list the -10dB point as the low frequency extension point. Still others run massive amounts of gain to flatten the sub at 85dB. A given sub might be flat to 22Hz when playing at 85dB, but if you take the SPL to the max it'll roll off badly below 30Hz.

Rel - 23Hz (in room @ -6dB)

Sunfire - 22Hz (likely in room @ -3dB)

MPS-150 - 24Hz (likely in room @ likely -10dB)

ACI Force - 20Hz (likely in room @ -3dB)

So, first thing is they're "cheating" by putting the sub in a corner to pick up as much gain as possible. They probably all have some sort of active equalization to improve bass response at low volumes also.

Seth

Seth

Have you measured the Sunfire and found out it is 22 Hz at -3dB. I have heard that incredible sub and it does go low, very low. How low I did not measure but the quality and quantity of bass coming from this sub is incredible. This said. Equalization is not in iteself a bad thing if judiciously done. It is possible through equalization to flatten the frequency response of a transducer, this means solid amplification, something the Sunfire does have in abundance.
I agree with you that a given sub could be flat from 20 Hz to 100 Hz at 85 dB and not around 100 dB but you better hear the Sunfire, it does go low and loud and authoritatively. The Sunfire are better used with Main speakers with abundant bass themselves, they are not woofers, the are(pun intended) True SUBwoofers. Crossover must be below 50 Hz and you have to carefully play around with positionning and the phase control to have it sound right

Sorry about the long post guys

Frantz

I bought my 16-46PC+ to replace my Sunfire True Sub MkII.

I know one thing. My 16-46PC+ is so much better in EVERY way than my Sunfire, it's freaking pathetic. There is absolutely NO comparison.

"The Sunfire are better used with Main speakers with abundant bass themselves, they are not woofers, the are(pun intended) True SUBwoofers. Crossover must be below 50 Hz and you have to carefully play around with positionning and the phase control to have it sound right"

That is extremely true.

John Johnson measured the Subwoofer Junior. At maximum output it was down 10db at 25hz. And @ 20hz there was a lot of distortion so he did not even take that measurement into account. Now, sure, it's a 9" cube what do you expect? But it all depends on what you want. If you want bass down into the teens with very little distortion you must look elsewhere.



You've just described every subwoofer worth owning.

Howard Ferstler of $ensible $ound reviewed the Sunfire and wrote that "it is more of an outboard 'woofer' than a subwoofer. The Sunfire could do 96db cleanly at 31.5hz -- similar performance to what the NHT SW10 and Velodyne CT-80 did in his room. The problem, he noted, was that these subwoofers cost less than half of the Sunfire's "rather steep" list price.

I live outside the USA and can audition certain systems only when I travel (quite a lot fortunately!!). From the plebiscite I am reading here the SVS are something special, their price is also reasonnable. I will certainly give them a listen next time I go to the USA.
Any of you have a good experince with it in classical music?

Frantz

I must be some sort of savant, then. Of course, "looks good on paper" means different things depending on experience.

Jack,



I always knew you were a little "different"!

And I don't use paper; I just use my laptop.

"Savant Syndrome is an exceedingly rare but remarkable condition in which persons with serious mental handicaps, resulting from various developmental disabilities, such as Autism or Williams Syndrome, or from major mental illness, have astonishing islands of ability or brilliance that stand in stark, markedly incongruous contrast to the overall disability."

I take it Jack, that you are a "DIY subwoofer savant", in that you have enjoyed extraordinary success in building subwoofers that not only modeled well on paper but also sounded great.

I would submit - based on how often your name crops up in various DIY subwoofer forums - that you are far from a rank amateur in the arena of DIY subwoofer building. However, might I remind you of your attempt to build an infinite baffle subwoofer with an Adire Tempest driver in the closet of your house that "looked good on paper" but in your own words sounded, shall we say, less than spectacular upon firing up, and to add insult to injury, also rolled off sharply at 50 Hz.

All I meant by my previous post is that even with reasonable care in the R&D phase, it is still possible that one's first attempt at a DIY sub might not sound as good as it COULD, if said builder were given the opportunity to alter the variables slightly and build/test several slightly different iterations. Given the general goodness of the modeling software and formulas available, in all likelihood, none of them would sound bad. By the same token, it is also likely one of the iterations will sound excellent, where all of the variables interact in a synergistic fashion and the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

The average DIY builder doesn't have that luxury and might suffer from niggling "what if" doubt, even if the first iteration is by most accounts a qualified success. For me, it's fun to dabble in DIY. On the other hand, it's also very reassuring to know that someone like Tom V has already ensured that the big black cylinder that sits front and center in my HT system is the best it can possibly be.

Regards,

Ed

Ed,

If you follow the formulas you can get a great sounding sub cheap. The catch is that the sub may not be all that small. The reason why there's so much R&D in subs is because the major manufacturers are too busy trying to cheat the formulas and skimping on their designs.

Even the mighty SVS is cheating the formulas some. Their subs are built much more in the style of a DIY person who follows the formulas precisely, but even they stray some when it comes to port size and tuning. They do that to keep the box size to what they think people will accept.

It is possible to build a sonotube sub/SVS clone for less money that sounds better. You don't have to be a savant to do it. If you pick a driver of decent quality with appropriate parameters, follow the formulas precisely, and do a decent job of constructing it you will get a great sounding sub. There is no magic. It's very straight forward. If you're a newbie you stop by the DIY forum and ask questions, get good advice, and go on your way building that great sounding sub.

It's really only when you try to break hoffman's iron law(s) that you have to posess magical qualities to get great results. Since the DIY crowd isn't busy doing that it's rather straight forward.

Seth

Actually, that's more the result of insomnia. I'm the definitive "rank amateur".


You might. I don't remember that very well, but I know the first time I tried it was very quick and not really sealed to the wall (with predictable results). The same closet has housed a few iterations of IB, excellent as predicted.


Yep. This reassurance (reviews, etc.)is the most important criterium for many, if not most. For me, the "what if" doubts only crop up if confronted with a commercial unit designed to a price point, acceptable size, etc. As all are.

Anyway, points well taken as usual.

I think most would agree with the above. I'm certainly glad that there is forum such as Hometheater with dedicated DYIers to aid and mentor those willing to pursue speaker building. At some point I may be venture down that path.

At least with the heavily reviewed SVS cylinder seriesm, the difference between DYI and the SVS is not worth the difference in dollars for me enter the hobby. In my case the tools (both hardware and software) and time needed for a one time sub build were not justifiable. For me, getting a proven SVS sub set-up got me in the top of category performance and allowed me to listen at spl levels and extension that the gbest DYIers are accustomed too. With an attractive speaker to boot.

Sometimes you'd just rather buy something and move on than build it yourself. Currently, my real hobbies are landscaping and weightlifting. Home audio / video is something I enjoy but it's not my hobby.

Regarding landscaping, I try to do it all; plant, mulch, exterior lighting, etc. I really enjoy it and I can't believe others pay people to do what I love. And the price is genrally 3-5 times less if you do it yourself.

Yep, DIY is definitely not for everyone.

I'm gonna have to disagree about building a sub being cheaper than building a SVS clone as from at least my experience (considering I bought a lot of my tools used). I think the first sub a person builds will usually put them in the $400-500 range (assuming they have an amp at least) but where the savings comes from is when you upgrade (tools are reusable) then the next expense is simply the driver, wood, and maybe the amp (assuming this needs an upgrade).