Hey Austin Texas Buddies? Can anyone help me out? - Page 3

On a related note, I try and keep a list of current model projectors so that I know what to keep an eye out for demo purposes. You might find some value in it.



PROJECTORS w/STANDARD (4:3) NATIVE RESOLUTIONS
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SVGA
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800x600LCD$1,300-$7,000
* too many makes & models to list

800x600DLP$2,000-$7,000
* too many makes & models to list


XGA
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1024x768LCD$2,100-$ 35,000
* too many makes & models to list

1024x768DLP$2,200-$150,000
* too many makes & models to list


SXGA
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1280x1024LCD$16,700-$30,000
Sharp XG Series XG-V10WU
Panasonic PT-L6600U (Panasonic PT-L6600UL)
Barco BarcoReality 6500
Sanyo PLC-EF10NZ (EIKI LC-SX1UL & LC-SX1U) (Proxima Pro AV 9400) (Boxlight FP-95t)
Sanyo PLC-EF12NL (Sanyo PLC-EF12N)
Sony VPL-FE110
Sanyo PLC-EF30NL (Sanyo PLC-EF30N) (Christie Vivid Blue) (Dukane ImagePro 9058) (Proxima Pro AV 9550)

1280x1024DLP$30,000-$130,000
Christie (many different models)
NEC (many different models)
Digital Projection (many different models)
Barco (many different models)
Panasonic PT-D7600U
Panasonic PT-D8600U
Panasonic PT-D9610U
Runco Reflection VX-5c
ProjectionDesign F1

1280x1024LCoS$18,000
JVC DLA-M15U

1366x1024LCD$14,600-$27,500
NEC GT2150
Digital Projection SHOWlite 3000sx
Epson PowerLite 9100i/NL (A+K EMP 9100)
Barco iQ R300 (Pro R300)
Barco iQ R400 (Pro R400)

1365x1024LCoS$8,500-$75,000
Hitachi CP-SX5500W (Dukane ImagePro 9115) (Christie Vivid Red)
JVC DLA-G15U (G15U-V) (G150CL) (S15U) (S15U-V) (Dukane ImagePro 9015)
JVC DLA-G20U (G20U-V) (M20U) (M20U-V) (M2000LU) (M2000SC) (Dukane ImagePro 9020)
JVC DLA-M5000SCU

1400x1050LCoS$10,000
JVC DLA-SX21


UXGA
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1600x1200LCD$45,000-$51,300
Barco Ultra Reality 7000
Sanyo PLC-UF10 (Christie Vivid White) (EIKI LC-UXT1)


QXGA
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2048x1536LCD$13,000
Lasergraphics LG2001

2048x1536LCoS$225,000
JVC DLA-QX1G



PROJECTORS w/WIDESCREEN (16:9) NATIVE RESOLUTIONS
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WVGA
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848x480DLP$2,700-$8,600
(these all use the TI Dual Mode Chip so for 4:3 thay also offer a native 800x600 resolution)
PLUS Home Piano HE3100
PLUS Home Piano Avanti HE-3200
Runco Reflection CL-500
InFocus Screenplay 110 (Boxlight 12SF) (Toshiba TDP-MT5)
SIM2 HT200 DM (HT200 DMF)

858x484LCD$1,800-$2,500
Sony VPL-HS2 Cineza
Panasonic PT-AE100
Panasonic PT-L200U (PT-AE200U)
Philips LC6231


1/4 HD
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960x540LCD$2,400-$2,800
Panasonic PT-L300U (AE300)
Sanyo PLV-Z1 (Boxlight Home Matinee 1HD)


WXGA
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1280x720LCD$5,000-$6,000
Epson TW100
Yamaha LPX-500
Toshiba TACP TLP-MT7

1280x720DLP$10,000-$27,000
Runco Reflection CL-700
InFocus Home Screenplay 7200 (Toshiba TACP TDP-MT8U)
DWIN TransVision TV2 (TV3)
SharpVision XV-Z9000U
SharpVision XV-Z10000U
Yamaha DPX-1000
Marantz VP-12S2
SIM2 Multimedia HT300 (HT300 Plus)
Runco Reflection VX-1000c
Runco VX-5000C

1366x768LCD$3,000-$20,000
Sony VPL-HS10 Cineza
Sanyo PLV-60HT (Boxlight Home Cinema 13HD)
Sony VPL-VW12HT
Sanyo PLV-70 (Boxlight Home Cinema 20HD)
Runco DLC-2000HD


WSXGA
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1920x1080LCD$13,000
Lasergraphics LG2001

Like the Dual Mode DLP projectors, this projector actually has two native resolutions: QXGA (2048 x 1536) for 4:3 sources and WSXGA (1920x1080) for 16:9 sources.

This projector has the distinction as being the first projector to be able to display full 1080p HD material naitively with no scaling.

I don't see the magic of Screen Goo, it doesn't seem like anything more than you could achieve at HomeDepot with a little Behr Ultrawhite base, some black pigment, and a little pearlesence. Paint that over some blackout fabric or plastex and voila! I know Nils isn't a fan of grayscreens, but they do seem to have a place when your black levels need help and you're willing to make other compromises to improve them. That said, I don't know if a 1HD falls into that category.

I guess the real question is, what's your budget and do you want a fixed screen or a roll up screen?

Mike,

Congrats on your new projector, and welcome to the world of big screen HT!

I got a good look at the Sanyo Z1 (which is the exact same projector as the 1HD) so I think I can give you some useful advice regarding screen choices.

First off, you say you have the projector 13.5' from the screen and that with no zoom you are getting a 96" diagonal image?

If so, then you may want to contact the Studio Experience division of Boxlight, as they have been publishing a very different throw ratio, as has Sanyo. Using their screen size calculator, they say that placing the projector 13.5' away from the screen will produce anywhere between a 112.5" and a 137.1" diagonal image. 112.5" is without the zoom and 137.1" is with the zoom all the way out. Now it is possible to get a 96" wide image (not diagonal) with the advertised throw ratios and a 13.5' throw, so maybe your image is 96" wide?

Regardless, if you are getting a 96" diagonal image than all the better as this projector really doesn't have the 'juice' (lumens) to produce an adequate image, for HT use, larger than 96". And even if you used a high gain screen to boost the brightness, the Z1's resolution and LCD pixel structure will come into play if you are considering a viewing distance to screen width ratio of less than 1.75:1. So for a 96" wide image, that would mean ideally sitting at least 14 feet away (measured from the viewer's eye to the screen). Now this can be subjective depending on how sensitive and how much you are concerned about being able to see the pixel structure, and how important a smooth image is to you.

Going back to the lumen issue, first keep in mind that the larger the image the dimmer it gets, as more light is needed to illuminate a larger area.

In the case of the Z1/1HD, it only has 700 lumens to begin with, and that is without the grayscale set to 6500D. Typically many manufactures advertise lumens with the projector's grayscale cranked up to as bright as possible. So why it may say on paper that the projector has 700 lumens, in fact it may have far less once it is properly calibrated for video.

Sony has been one of the worst when it comes to advertising 'modified' lumens. An ISFed calibrated 10HT produces about 450 lumens, but Sony's specs advertise 1000! In fact the HS10 claims to have 1200 lumens, but I can tell you right now that when I compared the Z1 to the HS10 projected on similar size and gain screens, the Sony was only ever so slightly brighter than the Z1.

From what I saw at the demo last Saturday, the Z1's grayscale is also set above 6500D, probably around 9-10k. if that were true I would guess the Z1 has no more than 500 real lumens to work with and that assumes that the specs are based on an out of the box unit, and not like Sony who bases them on a unit tweaked for max temp grayscale.

Now brightness, like pixel structure, is subjective, but generally for HT use most shoot for a luminance of about 30 foot lamperts. To measure this you divide the actual lumens by the sqft of the image multiplied by the gain of the screen.

In your case, if you use a 96" diagonal screen, then with no gain, you'll get about 18 foot lamperts. If that were the case then I'd recommend going with a high gain screen, perhaps a 1.8 - 2.2 gain screen. I'd certainly stay away from any gray screens, and not just because of their effect on the image, but with the exception of Stewart Screen's FireHawk, they all are usually below 1.0 gain so in effect you will actually loose foot lamperts rather than gain them. Gray screens are really only good for projectors with a great deal of lumens and that suffer poor black levels. Neither of those conditions come into play with the Z1.

Just to sum up, first make sure you identify the image size that you are comfortable with based on comfort and pixel structure. Then calculate luminance, and select a screen material/paint with sufficient gain such that you are not left with either a dim or overly bright image.

If you need some help, I can drop by sometime and run through with you how to calibrate your Z1 and then measure luminance.

Using Nils recommendation of a 1.8 to 2.2 gain screen may limit your DIY options. A plastex or blackout fabric screen painted with Behr Ultrawhite will produce about a 1.3 gain. You can start mixing pearlesence in with the paint to increase the gain, but you also run the risk of hotspotting, which is a big downer on the image quality. I'm not as big on the super bright image that Nils recommends, my Barco only puts out a fraction of the lumens that a DLP or LCD pj does, and I'm happy with it on a 1.3 gain screen.

You might want to experiment some before settling on a final screen. Blackout fabric only costs about $10 and the paint is about $20. I have an unpainted 45x80 blackout screen already built you can have for $15 if you come pick it up.

Dr. J wrote:
If I were you Mike, I'd be grabbing the car keys and rushing over to Dr. J's house before he changes his mind!

First of all, that's a great deal.

Second of all that's the size screen I would recommend for your projector in the first place (its about the same size screen as I use). Paint it with Behr Ultrawhite and you'll get about 26 foot lamperts which should be perfectly fine.

For comparison, I also still have a 4x8 sheet of PLAS-TEX which you can use to decide which you like best. For my projector, I saw little if any difference, and the advantages of the PLAS-TEX screen is that it is completely idiot/child proof. You can scrape it, draw on it, throw things at it (which happened a bunch at the Super Bowl party ), and best of all cleaning is as easy as spraying 409 and wiping clean. I wouldn't recommend doing that with a fabric screen.

Regardless, I would definitely take Dr. J up on his offer. Worst case scenario and you end up with a different screen, for only $15 you will be able to confirm what best meets your needs - that's a crazy bargain considering the cost of this hobby.

Mike,

I thought something looked strange regarding your recent post about getting your new projector. Sure enough...

On 2/6/03 Mike F. wrote: On 2/18/03 Mike F. wrote:


OK, there must be a story behind the switch. What happened with the X1?

Hey Nils,

Do you know of anyone around here who has an NEC HT1000? I'm considering it before the rebate expires next week.

All the reviews and reports have been highly favorable, but I'd like to see for myself if its worth the ~$2K it would cost me to upgrade over my LT150 and DVDo.

-Dave

No one in Texas that I know personally. Have you tried either posting such a request on AVS? You could also do a search on AVS with the following keywords: +HT1000 +Austin -"Austin Powers" (be sure to include the last or you will likely get a lot of hits regarding the AP DVDs and not someone in Austin). Then send them a PM asking to see it in action.

You'd be surprised just how open and friendly people can be, especially when they are proud over their equipment choice.

If you do find someone, let me know. I'd be curious to see how they chose to set it up.

I just want the cash to buy fabric for another screen The one I'm willing to give up was my first attempt at a DIY screen, it came out pretty well, though there is an ever so slight bulge in the center of the screen from a piece of warped wood. it could be fixed by pulling out the center support beam and turning it around.

Mike, your pics show as little white boxes with a small red *x* inside them. I guess my networked Windows NT computer can't read whatever format your pics are in.

I can see the pics, Mike.

If you haven't already bought the Parkland Plastex, check out some of the fabrics at dazian.com. I've read where some people really liked that coated celtic cloth.

The Austin projector shootout cemented my decision to go LCD -- my Panny L300U arrived last week. I've only been able to set it up temporarily, but have been very impressed. I have 3000 lbs of lumber arriving on Saturday and construction of the dedicated theater room officially begins. Woot!

Chad: My wife and I will be joining you in the "300 club" here shortly. We'll have ours sometime later this month. We are planning to buy it sight unseen. We would love LOVE LOVE to see yours sometime before our order ships. The reviews online tend to be very positive, but there's nothing like nitpicking in person. Would you be willing to have my wife and me over to see the PJ sometime? This is a big purchase for us, and seeing one in person would surely remove any fears we have.

Jeff,
Right now, I don't have it set up or even a good white wall to project against. That will change in about 8 weeks after I'm done with our theater room construction. So, I've been limited to playing with my new toy at a buddy's house using his screen.

However, I'd be happy to bring the 300 and a progressive scan dvd player to any screen or white wall in town.

Chad,

If you like you can plug your 300 into my system and invite folks to come over and check it out. The only thing you'll need to bring is the projector and power cord. I have a progressive scan DVD as well as a multitude of connections (DVI, VGA, Component, and S-Video).

The screen is a 7' wide Parkland PLAS-TEX.

Nils, thanks for the offer. I'm definitely game.

I'll leave it to you and Jeff to pick a date. My weekends are pretty packed with theater room construction but I'm always happy to take a few hours off to play with my new toy.

8 weeks to convert a garage to a theater? I think I've had my setup for over 6 months and I still haven't finished my room, and all I had to do was retrofit an existing space. Something's not right here. Oh yeah, it's me.

Mike, 10'x5' isn't an optimal dimensioning scheme for a movie screen. I would suggest you trim your plastex sheet to a 1.78:1 ratio (106.8"x60") which matches the native aspect ratio of your projector. Even then it seems like a really big screen for WVGA resolution.

(scratching my head)... Mike, what happened to the screen made from blackout material? You sure do a lot of 360 turns in your HT decision making don't you?

RPTV -> DLP -> LCD + Blackout screen -> PLAS-TEX screen -> Dazian Celtic screen

Thre different display devices, and three different screens, all in just a couple months... WOW!


Any how... You'll have to forgive our friend Dr. J, he comes from the world of CRT so he isn't familiar with the "Zoom" option which would allow you to use a 2:1 ratio screen when watching material of the same or greater aspect ratio and considering that 2.35 is a popular choice of film makers this means that you would have plenty of oppertunity to use a 10x5 screen.

On the other hand I would recommend you trim your 10x5 screen as Dr. J suggested because it would mean having to constantly adjust your zoom depending on the aspect ratio of each source. If you didn't adjust the zoom, the top and bottom of any image less than 2:1 ratio would be off your screen.

Now Dr. J also brought up another important issue, and that is your projector's resolution. I would agree with Dr. J that the projector you have (Sanyo Z1 - unless of course you have changed it yet again?) doesn't have a high enough resolution to be used with a screen larger than 7' wide unless you are planning on sitting at least 15' from the screen or don't mind the image to be slightly pixilated (screen door).

But even then you have some other issues with your Z1, which I pointed out before and that is it doesn't have enough lumens (only 700max, +/-500calibrated) either to produce an ideal image larger than 7' wide, unless you use a screen with a much higher gain.

So it may sound like I am suggesting you trim your PLAS-TEX screen to about 7'x4' - but I'm not, and here is why:

Regardless of what size image you want/need to have and what size screen would be needed you would still want to mask it as there are numerous differences in aspect ratios from different sources (4:3,16:9,1.85:1,2.35:1, 2.74:1,etc). So regardless of your size/shape of screen you will want to be able to adjust the masking on all four sides. For this reason, ideally you want the largest possible screen you are willing to make/buy and install. Then you simply mask the screen to match the exact size and shape of the image you are watching.

This is precisely how movie theaters do it, and how HT systems should be designed for. Consider this, you buy a projector that is really only capable of displaying a quality image of say about 92" diagonal, but a couple years later you upgrade to a new projector that is capable of displaying up to a 120" diagonal image. Had you installed a screen that would only fit a 92" diagonal image than you will be forced to buy/make a brand new screen.

Masking makes screen sizes irrelevant and if for that reason alone they should be used. The fact that they also significantly improve the presentation of the screen and prevent any ambient light from being reflected onto the unused portion of the screen (such as what occurs when you use a 16:9 screen while watching DVDs with 1.85:1 or greater aspect ratios). Also if you are using a DLP, masking will also absorb any light halos that could otherwise be reflected by the wall behind the screen.

BOTTOM LINE: My advice is to install the largest screen possible that you are comfortable with. Install 4-way masking such that no matter what projector you are using, and no matter what the aspect ratio is from your source, you will always have a screen that matches them perfectly.

Chad: I'm for picking a time that will work well for you. If you'd rather be building the HT during the weekend, a weekday-night evening would be fine with me! I'll post later with more details... I'm on the way out the door.

THANKS!!!

I agree with Nils "few details included" Luehrmann - his screen is the way to go. The black velvet masking really makes the image theater-like. Remember the threads a couple of years ago when folks were "masking" their direct view TV's? Well, I tried it and it works - replacing the "black bars" with truly black material showed the bars were actually dark grey, and the contrast between truly black and the screen image makes the image *pop*.

Mike, you DID spell "miter" correctly (although you could use the Queen's good English and go with mitre), but you probably had the measles during the week that that the English teacher covered "a" and "an".

Nils, regarding Mike's CC speaker quest, you probably shouldn't go there.

I figured I'd get flak from the digital guys over that I was coming at it from the angle that the pj is probably going to be up on the ceiling and you're probably not going to want mess with zooming it in and out all the time to fill up the width of the screen. Or maybe it has a powered zoom? The other thing I was considering was aesthetics; if your pj is in a multi-use room then personally I would want to minimize the visual impact of the screen, and the extra wide masks on the sides would annoy me.

Dr. J

I was just messing with you.

(It's not often that I get a chance to poke fun of CRT owners, so when one comes up I just have to take advantage of it.)

As it is, the Z1 doesn't have a power zoom, but frankly even if it did, or Mike had a projector with a power zoom, I still wouldn't recommend a set-up where you would zoom in on sources greater than 2:1 because ideally you want a HT designed for a specific viewing distance to screen width ratio that best meets the needs of the owner and the performance capabilities of the projector. Once you have that set-up correctly, and then start monkeying around with the zoom it will change those parameters and will adversely effect the quality of the image.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that. My screen is still a work in progress as I have not yet resolved the best way to manually control all four masks (which is also why I have not yet installed the bottom mask). I was originally going to have a single drawstring for the two vertical (left and right) masks, but I soon discovered that believe it or not, not all 4:3 sources are centered such that masking them properly would mean having the ability to adjust each side separately. This also goes for the horizontal (top and bottom) masking as well.

Once I have my masking system completed, Linda will finish it all out with decorative curtains such that the masking is not so intrusive to the aesthetics of the room.
(as pointed out by our resident interior decorator Dr. J)