Home Theater Forum › Home Theater Forum › Entertainment › Movies (Theatrical) › Sight and Sound (2002) Greatest Films Club
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Sight and Sound (2002) Greatest Films Club - Page 104

post #3091 of 3769

Re: Sight and Sound (2002) Greatest Films Club

The discussion of Blow-Up reminds me of the alternate ending of Dodgeball. I realize it was meant as a joke, but he could have indeed ended it that way and claimed all kinds of bullshit reasons for doing so, but it would still be wrong and not fit the rest of the film. I will simply never buy that such a great Hitchcockian mystery unresolved in the worst possible way is somehow more meaningful than a great Hitchcockian mystery resolved such as Vertigo, which again says more in 5 minutes than Antonioni could say in 5 years.

Moving on...

Bob le Flambeur

Not horrible, but horribly overrated. Made the same time as Rififi a great heist film that kicked that genre into high gear. Bob is a not very good heist film that kicked the New Wave into high gear. Considering I love great heist films, and don't think much of the French new wave, it's no surprise that Rififi sits proudly on my shelf, and Bob never will.
post #3092 of 3769

Re: Sight and Sound (2002) Greatest Films Club

Quote:
Originally Posted by george kaplan
The discussion of Blow-Up reminds me of the alternate ending of Dodgeball. I realize it was meant as a joke, but he could have indeed ended it that way and claimed all kinds of bullshit reasons for doing so, but it would still be wrong and not fit the rest of the film. I will simply never buy that such a great Hitchcockian mystery unresolved in the worst possible way is somehow more meaningful than a great Hitchcockian mystery resolved such as Vertigo, which again says more in 5 minutes than Antonioni could say in 5 years.

Moving on...

Bob le Flambeur

Not horrible, but horribly overrated. Made the same time as Rififi a great heist film that kicked that genre into high gear. Bob is a not very good heist film that kicked the New Wave into high gear. Considering I love great heist films, and don't think much of the French new wave, it's no surprise that Rififi sits proudly on my shelf, and Bob never will.

I think Vertigo is a great ending but I question whether anything is resolved.

Does Madeleine fall to her death or does she trick Scottie yet again and in virtually the same spot as before? Do we see a dead body or just Scottie staring down in the dark looking for one while Madeleine makes her way around the ledge to the other side?

Is there even a reality or is this merely a dream that continues? Perhaps the dream of the mad woman we see in the opening credits.

Point is that the richness that is Vertigo is in its possibilities. If you prefer to see it as resolved that's fine but I don't see that as what Hitch was going for.

I'm a fan of Bob Le Flambeur but I can see how it is not for everyone. I really enjoy duality in all its form and Bob Le Flambeur is all about presenting duality including repeated words, repeated props, mirror images, old/young etc. etc. (little pun there).
post #3093 of 3769

Re: Sight and Sound (2002) Greatest Films Club

Quote:
Originally Posted by george kaplan
Thomas,
I come to the conclusion that he was too lazy or too stupid to figure out a solution to the mystery.


Oh brother. I thought about responding to your post, but, alas, now I think I won't, and I'll just let everybody else read this quote and make up their own minds about whether or not you actually "get" Antonioni's cinema at all.

It's gotten to the point where Antonioni now is "too stupid" to identify Anna's kidnapper in L'Avventura and the murderer in Blow Up, as if that was what he set out to achieve and was simply too incompetant to accomplish.

I'll just let people marinate on your assertion that I quoted.
post #3094 of 3769

Re: Sight and Sound (2002) Greatest Films Club

Quote:
Originally Posted by rich_d
If you want to avoid the question so be it

Just the same, I gotta thank you for NOT avoiding my direct question to you about how, exactly, the two leads in L'Avventura end the film just "hanging out?"

Thanks again.
post #3095 of 3769

Re: Sight and Sound (2002) Greatest Films Club

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Turnbull
But if the assumption is that Antonioni was going for "there is no concrete reality - perception defines it", why would we assume that he ever cared about the murder as a plot point? Given his theme, how do we know a murder even took place? The photographer is the only one who thinks he saw something. When he blows up the images, the fuzzy picture suddenly becomes very clear that there was a gun (even though everything else looks quite pixalated), so could that just be what he chooses to see? This fits with the concept of the movie like some other scenes:

- inside the club, it was worth fighting off the crowd to hold on to that broken guitar neck. Outside, it was useless to him and got tossed away.
- while the photographer was rolling around with the two young naked women, their faces seemed to alternate between happy and frightened.
- the perception by the stoned model at the party that she was somewhere else.


I fully understand the disappointment in not seeing that storyline resolved. The first time I saw the film I thought "Wha?" at the end. But given that, it made me reconsider what I saw and think about the film over the next few days. I ended up buying it. That's not to say these kind of art films are better than something a bit more straightforwardly narrative - just different and enjoyable in a wholly different way.

I think Antonioni always meant to include an unresolved "murder", so there was no intention of bringing that story to a close (and therefore no need to try to think up an ending to it).

See, Bob "gets" it.

I think the problem might be that some of you watch Anotonioni's films as literary films, when in fact you should be watching them as cinematic architecture, in a sense. That might be why you are analyzing plot when your attention should be elsewhere. Antonioni doesn't use plot to convey his messages, and he certainly has meanings in mind while shooting.

Now, you can say you don't like his films, because they don't follow classical Hollywood cinematic devices. Ok, that's why I respect your opinion. But you can't say you "get" Antonioni's cinema and then complain about the lack of wrapped-up resolutions. If you truly "got" it, you wouldn't ask "why doesn't Antonioni tell me who the murderer is or what happened to Anna?" That question is beside the point.

To complain that Anotonioni's films are piles of dog crap because they don't follow such classical Hollywood cinema narrative devices as setting up a murder in act one and then paying that off in act 3, and then to attest, after making that complaint, that you "got" what Antonioni was trying to say, is ridiculous.

Just admit that his cinema goes over your head and move on. I'll admit that Apocalypse Now goes completely over my head. I think it's pure camp. I'll also admit that, since a lot of praise is heaped on that film, evidently I just don't "get" it.

On a related note:
Do you complain that "The Catcher in the Rye" is a terrible book, because it has a lousy plot? "Oh, it's just a event-less week in the life of an angst-ridden youth with nothing to do. I hated that book! Nothing happens." Of course not. The book is a classic in spite of its lack of plot, and there is a reason for that. If you understand why that is a classic piece of literature, you wouldn't complain that the lack of plot takes away from the novel's overall virtues.

(I admit comparing J.D. Salinger and Antonioni is mixing metaphores, so to speak, but I think you get my point, regardless).
post #3096 of 3769

Re: Sight and Sound (2002) Greatest Films Club

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas J.
Just the same, I gotta thank you for NOT avoiding my direct question to you about how, exactly, the two leads in L'Avventura end the film just "hanging out?"

Thanks again.

First, how about we lose the phony baloney words and just say what we mean? You sure don't mean to thank me so please cut the nonsense.

And I did respond to your question but I'll reiterate.

Don't change YOUR discussion point and not expect to be called on it. It comes across as a bit of a bait and switch rather than an honest discussion. First you talk about 'great film endings' and all of a sudden it shifts to a 'great ending shot' ... big difference.

Edit: Reading the post above it appears that you've back off and now your position is enjoy Antonioni's films as 'art for art's sake.' No problem here.

Quote:
Just admit that his cinema goes over your head and move on. I'll admit that Apocalypse Now goes completely over my head. I think it's pure camp. I'll also admit that, since a lot of praise is heaped on that film, evidently I just don't "get" it.

Dude, that's waaaay out of line. Don't tell people that they're not intellectual enough to enjoy the films you like. Your follow-up about Apocalypse Now ... comes across as 'I get smart things and I really don't get dumb things'

Just dazzle us with the intelligence of your thoughts and ideas and drop the only slightly veiled insults.
post #3097 of 3769

Re: Sight and Sound (2002) Greatest Films Club

Quote:
Originally Posted by rich_d
First, how about we lose the phony baloney words and just say what we mean? You sure don't mean to thank me so please cut the nonsense.

And I did respond to your question but I'll reiterate.

Don't change YOUR discussion point and not expect to be called on it. It comes across as a bit of a bait and switch rather than an honest discussion. First you talk about 'great film endings' and all of a sudden it shifts to a 'great ending shot' ... big difference.

Looking over your two posts prior to this one, I see you asked me only one question, so I guess that's the one you want me not to avoid answering. Fair enough, so, let's see, that initial question you addressed to me a couple of days ago was:

"...what does hanging around the street have to do with encapsulating the overall theme of the film?"

I would indeed try to answer your question if not for the fact that I don't think they end the film "hanging around the street."

How can I answer a question which is based on what in my opinion is a false premise? That gives rise to my rejoinder to you. Please justify this "hanging around the street" premise -- then I will be happy to address your question.

I'm trying to be rational about this. Thanks.
post #3098 of 3769

Re: Sight and Sound (2002) Greatest Films Club

Look, I'm willing to drop this whole thing. In retrospect, I feel as if it's going to appear as if I've come in here and sabotaged this great thread. So, even though I'm just trying to have a rational discussion intially based on imo irrational hyperbole, and didn't intend things to get so heated, I'm willing to let it go. Things are getting too tense in here, lol.

Let's just agree to disagree. You did call Antonioni "too stupid" though, lol.

I should probably join this challenge, by the way. I've read all 100+ pages, after all. Maybe this weekend. Cheers.
post #3099 of 3769

Re: Sight and Sound (2002) Greatest Films Club

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas J.
How can I answer a question which is based on what in my opinion is a false premise? That gives rise to my rejoinder to you. Please justify this "hanging around the street" premise -- then I will be happy to address your question.

I'm trying to be rational about this. Thanks.

No problem as long as this isn't just a semantics issue. The last 4+ minutes are spent here.

lavventurastreetscene1aw9.th.jpg

Now, where I come from, if you're here, you're hanging around the street or hanging around a parking lot if you prefer. Now if the problem is that you don't like the word 'hanging' I'll change it to say 'they're on the streets.'

Edit. Interesting forced perspective, from the first shot it seem more probable the couple is staring at another building in front of them rather than at any mountain.

lavventurastreetscene2qy1.th.jpg
post #3100 of 3769

Re: Sight and Sound (2002) Greatest Films Club

See, Bob "gets" it.
Here's the problem, Thomas. For you, "getting it" means agreeing with your interpretation of Blow-up. I "understand" what you think Antonioni was doing, I simply disagree. It's not that I don't see the argument you're making. But I don't agree. That's all. By most reasonable definitions (e.g., understanding), I "get it", but not I suppose if you add having to agree with you about it to the definition of "getting it".

Rich, nothing is ever 100% certain in a film, but there's a huge difference between there being room for interpretation within a well plotted and finished story, and just veering off into nonsense. If Antonioni had made Vertigo, we'd see Jimmy Stewart start to go up the stairs at the end and then the scene would shift to Antartica, where two purple and red striped zebras would be sitting at a table, debating Sartre.
post #3101 of 3769

Re: Sight and Sound (2002) Greatest Films Club

Quote:
where two purple and red striped zebras would be sitting at a table, debating Sartre.
Which proves you don't get Antonioni George...They'd be giraffes. Geez.

To clarify in my own mind, are you saying that you think it is more likely that Antonioni was incompetent at resolving a plot (which he went to great lengths to start up) instead of having an initial plan that would leave certain things unresolved (which fits in with the themes suggested)? Now if this was his first or only film, I might say that Occam's razor slides to the former statement. But since he's shown a pattern of unresolved endings, wouldn't this likely show that he intends these and it's a simple matter of taste going on here ("Yeah, I see what he's going for here, but it bored the crap out of me" or "I wish he had continued with the murder story because he certainly had the filmmaking chops to reel me into the plot.")?

Or am I totally missing your response to Thomas and making this a semantic argument?

Quote:
I should probably join this challenge, by the way.
Please do Thomas...I just joined it about a month ago. This is one of the all-time great threads if you ask me. Via posts by Lew, Brook, George and many others, I've learned tons about different styles and genres as well as adding loads of films to my viewing list.
post #3102 of 3769

Re: Sight and Sound (2002) Greatest Films Club

Quote:
Do you complain that "The Catcher in the Rye" is a terrible book, because it has a lousy plot? "Oh, it's just a event-less week in the life of an angst-ridden youth with nothing to do. I hated that book! Nothing happens."

actually that's about 95% accurate of my feelings on the book. It may have to do with attending USC (the University of Spoiled Children) that I have very little sympathy for the 'hard life' of ennui riddled wealthy teenagers. I found the book well written but overall meaningless compared to truly powerful experiences like Grapes of Wrath, Catch 22, and Huck Finn. fwiw I never got further than about 30 pages of Great Gatsby before giving up and it took only reading the first paragraph of Portrait of an Artist for me to realize it wasn't for me (though I will read Finnegan's Wake sometime soon). I had to read The Stranger about four different times. I never cared much for it, but I respected it, about as interesting as Kafka's Metamorphosis.

USC also caused me to start to dislike American Beauty somewhat because the same Caulfields think it's a serious meditation on modern American life, rather than a black comedy skewering the hollywood representation of sububia. I can do without one more person trying to convince me that the bag actually WAS beautiful and not one of the funniest moments of the film.
post #3103 of 3769

Re: Sight and Sound (2002) Greatest Films Club

Quote:
I think the problem might be that some of you watch Anotonioni's films as literary films, when in fact you should be watching them as cinematic architecture, in a sense. That might be why you are analyzing plot when your attention should be elsewhere. Antonioni doesn't use plot to convey his messages, and he certainly has meanings in mind while shooting.

Now, you can say you don't like his films, because they don't follow classical Hollywood cinematic devices. Ok, that's why I respect your opinion. But you can't say you "get" Antonioni's cinema and then complain about the lack of wrapped-up resolutions. If you truly "got" it, you wouldn't ask "why doesn't Antonioni tell me who the murderer is or what happened to Anna?" That question is beside the point.

Do you like Noka Chocolate?

I get what Antonioni is doing, I don't care for it, I don't expect resolution from his films. I think his approach encourages lazy art in others and makes his own work somewhat bad films. Though they're still worth seeing.

He's still so far beyond his descendents who practice 'how stupid is my audience' filmmaking, with tripe like Goodbye, Dragon Inn.
post #3104 of 3769

Re: Sight and Sound (2002) Greatest Films Club

Welcome Thomas nice to see a little sunshine in this thread. George's "dark side of the force" and his Sith disciple Adam were getting their way too much around here.

Seth, you brought a tear to my eye by using Fassbinder as your example of a "craftsman director". There's still hope for you!

Enough smilies, an actual review, even if I saw the film baaaack in September

#296 Eternity and a Day (1998, Theo Angelopoulos)

This slow, contemplative film follows the last day of Alexandre, a renowned Greek poet suffering terminal cancer who is about to check into a hospital, presumably to die there. Alexandre ruminates on his misspent life, thinking back on opportunities missed to share his family's love. He also encounters an Albanian street kid, takes him for a short time, and tries to better the boy's situation.

An unrecognizable Bruno Ganz provides a moving, emotive performance that gives the audience something to latch onto. A good thing, because while the film contains some incredible shots, Angelopoulos' detached storytelling style and the film's 130m+ running time make for some heavy going at times. Ganz elevates the somewhat tired narrative into a thoughtful, melancholy experience. Hardly a classic, (ducks as George screams THAN WHAT'S IT DOING ON THE S&S LIST?) but definitely worthwhile. - B+

Going to have to try a little harder. Some of you are edging up on me. But I think Late Spring is the only S&S film I have. I guess there's the upcoming Mouchette disc and maybe once I have TV and DVR again I can catch a TCM showing of Faster Pussycat if it's still in their rotation.
post #3105 of 3769

Re: Sight and Sound (2002) Greatest Films Club

I haven't seen the film you're all talking about, but I've been reading the posts and I did perk up when I read about "not getting" a film (in general). I think this most certainly can and does happen. I've come across it many times with people during film discussion where they're completely in the dark, and I myself also miss the director's point in certain films sometimes, or misinterpret his intentions. It doesn't necessarily mean a person is not intelligent or is too plain stupid, but it does occur. There is such a thing as not getting a movie.
post #3106 of 3769

Re: Sight and Sound (2002) Greatest Films Club

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Karlosi
It doesn't necessarily mean a person is not intelligent or is too plain stupid, but it does occur. There is such a thing as not getting a movie.

There is also such a thing as a person being plain stupid, we shouldn't necessarily rule that out. Some people apparently never get a movie that doesn't spell everything out in A-B-C fashion.
post #3107 of 3769

Re: Sight and Sound (2002) Greatest Films Club

Which proves you don't get Antonioni George...They'd be giraffes.
Doh!
post #3108 of 3769

Re: Sight and Sound (2002) Greatest Films Club

I'll address this whole issue of appropriate and dutiful film analysis tomorrow, when I have more time. Too busy right now. *frowns*

(This idea of "getting" a film directly ties in with what I have to say about the objective of serious film criticism and analysis). I'll also try to address Rich's question as best I can, even though, of course, I'm not going to change your mind. I am aware of that going in.
post #3109 of 3769

Re: Sight and Sound (2002) Greatest Films Club

Quote:
This idea of "getting" a film directly ties in with what I have to say about the objective of serious film criticism and analysis

Oh goody, tomorrow promises to be a slow day anyway... knock on wood. and I've not had a good ivolved debate on film/art criticism in a while.

Quote:
George's "dark side of the force" and his Sith disciple Adam
insert smilies for «baffled» «delighted» «horrified» «rueful grin» «back slap» «buy Brook a beer»
post #3110 of 3769

Re: Sight and Sound (2002) Greatest Films Club

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Brook, I am your father


post #3111 of 3769

Re: Sight and Sound (2002) Greatest Films Club

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Teller
There is also such a thing as a person being plain stupid, we shouldn't necessarily rule that out. Some people apparently never get a movie that doesn't spell everything out in A-B-C fashion.

That does occur. Then again, if you think about it, what's basically happening is that a filmmaker is attempting to express his own ideas, and it's not always a natural given that another person can always relate or understand what the first person is trying to convey. In some cases is that the fault of the viewer or that the director couldn't better express himself?
post #3112 of 3769

Re: Sight and Sound (2002) Greatest Films Club

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas J.
I'll address this whole issue of appropriate and dutiful film analysis tomorrow, when I have more time. Too busy right now. *frowns*

(This idea of "getting" a film directly ties in with what I have to say about the objective of serious film criticism and analysis). I'll also try to address Rich's question as best I can, even though, of course, I'm not going to change your mind. I am aware of that going in.

Perhaps it is more healthy (and realistic) to think of it as influencing others rather than changing 'my' opinion. If you're just doing it just for me, please give it a pass.

Having said that, I change my position on films. However, I'd be kidding myself if I said that occurs in a blink of an eye based on what someone wrote. Usually ideas have to percolate for a while. Seeing a film again can reinforce a viewpoint or change it. I'm open to most.

What is value-added to me is not so much people that agree with me but people that don't. They often give things for me to consider and think about.

People claim that as you get older you get more set in your opinions. I can only speak for myself. Without a doubt, I've learned more about film in the last five years than any like period before that. Naturally, sometimes that learning changes or enhances my opinions.

Personally, the films that are at the top of my list tend to be ones that are not wrapped up but more open-ended for interpretation. 8 1/2, Mulholland Dr., Chinatown, Vertigo, L'Appartement come to mind. However, if someone feels that Mulholland Dr. was a total waste of their time I don't have a problem with that. All I can mention is that I loved it, mention why and suggest perhaps another viewing at some point. Suggesting that a film went 'over their heads' or that 'they don't know what they don't know' seems rather fruitless to me. If everyone saw things the same way it would be a very boring world. Agreed?
post #3113 of 3769

Re: Sight and Sound (2002) Greatest Films Club

There is also such a thing as a person being plain stupid, we shouldn't necessarily rule that out. Some people apparently never get a movie that doesn't spell everything out in A-B-C fashion.
No kidding. Don't you just hate that kind of Hollywood tripe, where the surface story has those damned resolved endings and logical plots? It completely ruins the underlying symbolic and deeper meanings in the films, which can only be accessed in films in which the surface story doesn't follow such stupid conventions. Some of the worst offenders are films like:

Citizen Kane - what the hell are they doing telling us what Rosebud was?

Chinatown - why the hell did they tell us who was behind the water conspiracy?

Rear Window - God, this could have been great if it had just left us guessing as to whether or not Thorwald's wife was still alive.

The Seven Samurai - why oh why couldn't Kurosawa have just left us having to figure out for ourselves whether the bandits won or lost?

The Seventh Seal - Think of how meaningful this would have been if we hadn't seen the final resolution of the chess game.

Psycho - what could have been a masterpiece is ruined by telling us who the killer was. Damn.

All of those films, if they had just ended five minutes earlier with mimes playing tennis would have rejected the stupid Hollywood A-B-C paint-by-numbers approach and would have really been meaningful insights into the human condition. Instead we get surface level shallow popcorn films that any moron could completely understand, devoid of any subtley or art.
post #3114 of 3769

Re: Sight and Sound (2002) Greatest Films Club

One can actually enjoy both approaches, george. It's not an either/or situation. Some films are great at telling a simple (or even not so simple) plot-driven story. Some films are great at rewarding the viewer for careful thought and attention. Some films are just darn pretty to look at, some excel at showcasing the charisma of the actors. It's a matter of being open to different experiences from different films.
post #3115 of 3769

Re: Sight and Sound (2002) Greatest Films Club

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Teller
One can actually enjoy both approaches, george. It's not an either/or situation. Some films are great at telling a simple (or even not so simple) plot-driven story. Some films are great at rewarding the viewer for careful thought and attention. Some films are just darn pretty to look at, some excel at showcasing the charisma of the actors. It's a matter of being open to different experiences from different films.

Agreed. Where I draw the line is based on a simple rule. If I would have rather just seen the same actors in a documentary of them having lunch together and would have found that to be more interesting then the film I just watched.

Of late, Marie Antoinette comes to mind. Loved Sophia Coppola's other films but this looked just like an excuse to have fun playing fancy dress-up and spend more time in Paris shopping and attending the fashion shows.
post #3116 of 3769

Re: Sight and Sound (2002) Greatest Films Club

One can actually enjoy both approaches
Yes, but...

One could break films up into 4 categories:

-great surface story/great underlying symbolism, meaning, theme, etc.
-great surface story/not great underlying stuff (or nothing under there at all)
-bad surface story/great underlying smbolism, etc.
-bad surface story/bad underneath

I suspect you'd agree with me that #1 is best and #4 is worst. Where I think we'd disagree is on #2 and #3. For me, #2 isn't as good as #1, but it's still great. I can enjoy a great film even if there's no "deep meaning or fascinating symbolism. However, while conceptually I'd agree #3 is better than #4, for me it doesn't really matter. If the surface story is horrible, I'm not going to give a damn about what's underneath. It's like rap lyrics. Maybe they're as great as anything written by Dylan or Lennon, but I'll never listen to that 'music' long enough to find out. The surface story (plot, etc.) is like an entree. It's better when it's seasoned (the symbolism, etc.), but a great steak unseasoned is still good, while a plate full of salt by itself is pretty worthless.

What bugs the hell out of me with Blow-Up, is that, with just the slightest thought, a great ending would have given us a #1. Instead that horrible ending gives us a #3.

This will be a difficult question for you to answer honestly, but try. If you had never seen Blow-Up, and you watched it for the first time, and it was exactly the same film up until the very end, but instead of the ending, a great, clever and symbolically equivalent resolution to the murder was presented, wouldn't this still be a great film for you? Do you honestly think it isn't possible to provide a resolution to the murder that is every bit as satisfying at the 'deep' level to mimes playing tennis, but that creates a satsifying resolution to the story? I certainly think it was possible, and the fact that he purposely didn't do so is to me, not great art, but a great "F U" to the audience.

Look, in the end, there's no right answer here. If a film works for you, it's certainly great art, for you. But that doesn't make it great art for me, and while we can debate and discuss why you think a film climax is the result of great artistic inspiration, while I think it's the result of artistic laziness and arrogance, in the end, we're both right, since it's just our opinions.
post #3117 of 3769

Re: Sight and Sound (2002) Greatest Films Club

Quote:
If you had never seen Blow-Up, and you watched it for the first time, and it was exactly the same film up until the very end, but instead of the ending, a great, clever and symbolically equivalent resolution to the murder was presented, wouldn't this still be a great film for you?
From a pure entertainment point of view, sure I'd love to have seen that mystery wrapped up and it's an interesting exercise to think how it could be done in a "symbolically equivalent" way. But, and I'm trying to be honest here, I think solving the mystery would actually hurt Antonioni's theme. If the mystery was conceived as simply another "perceived reality", solving it would suddenly make it concrete and take away from the layers of other different perceptions in the film. That doesn't make it necessarily a better or worse film objectively, but certainly changes what the director was trying to achieve (or at least what I think he was trying to achieve).

In many ways Blow-Up has stuck with me more because it made me consider what I had seen. Which, given the theme, is what I think he was trying to do with that final F U ("what do you as the viewer think you just saw?"). The steak in this film is the theme. The plot threads and how they were executed are the seasonings.

But, as you say, that's just an interpretation. I have no idea if it's close to what Antonioni wanted. Even if it was, it's only accurate compared to intent - not to any specific person's own feelings or interpretation.
post #3118 of 3769

Re: Sight and Sound (2002) Greatest Films Club

Ok, since I last posted, Bob has basically taken up my slack, so kudos to you Bob.

Rich, after whining that I was avoiding answering your question, now you tell me to take a pass on doing just that? Talk about mixed messages. *throws hands up in despair*

Therefore, what I think I'll do now is make a post here discussing why I think L'Avventura is the second greatest film ever made (Citizen Kane being #1, btw). I think tomorrow morning I'll post my thoughts on film analysis, as promised. I'm going to make that a separate thread, though, because it doesn't really directly relate to the Sight and Sound Challenge, strictly speaking. Otherwise the mods would be breathing down my neck.
post #3119 of 3769

Re: Sight and Sound (2002) Greatest Films Club

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas J.
Rich, after whining that I was avoiding answering your question, now you tell me to take a pass on doing just that? Talk about mixed messages. *throws hands up in despair*

Ah, so that's what I get for giving you some slack from a fairly tragic and hopeless position, getting called a whiner. Sheesh, what a guy. (doesn't throw hands into the air as this is the Internet).
post #3120 of 3769

Re: Sight and Sound (2002) Greatest Films Club

L'Avventura:

What makes this film the greatest film since Citizen Kane is that it successfully created an altogether new cinema. As has been touched upon already, film had basically been rooted in literature. Sure, actualities were not literature, but cinematic narrative supplanted actuality when audiences spoke with their wallets that they wanted narrative. In perhaps the golden age of cinema, certainly American cinema at least, the 1920s and 1930s, film was driven by narrative. Yes, there were exceptions. For example, across the waters, Dovzhenko's (sp?) Earth created a lyrical tone that outweighed narrative drive. Still, that tonal quality likely spawned from classical cinematic language-devices such as montage, rather than was invented on its own. In other words, montage was its springboard, or at least there was a springboard, in a sense.

Now let me jump ahead and skip an almost unforgivable amount of cinema (sorry) to the blooming European art-house movement of the late-50s and early 60s. It was then that filmmakers hinted at new directions cinema could have taken from that point forward, and, today, perhaps still can take, were filmmakers and financiers so enamored with narrative for a multitude of reasons. Examples included Hiroshima, Mon Amour (and of course it's eventual successor LYAM), Godard's deconstructionism, maybe Bergman's cosmic-religious symbolism if you want to stretch it out a bit...but, still, the great affects these films/filmmakers produced were in one way or another a result of a narrativistic springboard (i.e. literature, in one way or another).

In this context, then, what makes L'Avventura so great is that it introduced a new cinema for a mass audience: a cinema not rooted in literature, but ARCHITECTURE. Yes, Antonioni made cinematic architecture rather than literature.

Of course, films by their very nature operate within a period of time. Take away the time quotient, and one is left with still photography. Even a film comprised of two frames takes time to watch. In addition, let us not forget that Antonioni was making films for a mass audience; they were meant to be seen, and his audience was conditioned to expect a narrativistic cinematic language (which explains the initial boos and hisses at Cannes). Also, Antonioni's predisposition was to express ideas of alienation in the modern world -- the impossibility of love. That idea was part of his artistic makeup. Therefore, he probably ruminated on this and through his early work, tried to discover how he as a filmmaker, then, could palatably convey the idea of the impossibility of love, especially when, from his worldview, this impossibility stems from an inability to actively exist in the modern world? Answer: one has to express his/her ideas not via characters and their actions, but via the spaces they inhabit, which dictate their inaction. This was Antonioni's breaking point. And what a revolutionary approach this was.

Antonioni doesn't care whether you as a viewer can project yourself onto the characters in his films. It's beside the point. Antonioni doesn't care if you don't think his characters act realistically, or even naturally. It's beside the point. And, it follows, he doesn't care if the ultimate resolution of their external actions doesn't amount to much. It's beside the point. What is important is to pay attention to that which surrounds the characters and, as such, that which bears down on the characters to directly and symbolically give them internal states of mind, internal states of being.

The eponymous "The Adventure" is not an external one. It's an internal one. So how does a filmmaker convey to an audience a purely internal journey, one which is predicated to a large degree by the external environment? Well, to quote Gene Youngblood, it's via the "objective correlative," where external objects give the cinematic viewer awareness of internal character states of mind and being. What a revolutionary approach to cinema! -- to focus the camera on stationary, external objects, such as buildings and foliage, as if THEY were the living and breathing characters, and, in so doing, use those objects to vicariously comment on the lack of living and breathing subjective emotional states of the human characters -- what gripping and exciting cinema!

I don't think such a new cinema had been successfully invented up to that point. Again, a cinematic architectural style blossomed rather than a cinematic literary style.

Okay, some of my readers now are probably arguing, "I see. In this guy's opinion, L'Avventura is the second greatest film of all time, simply due to historical importance, which really wasn't so important to begin with. What a moron!" Well, for one, Antonioni was a master, and it's a credit to his artistry that cinematic architecture did not supplant cinematic literature, because, let's face it, it's hard to make successfully produce cinematic architecture. I myself know Antonioni's films are great, if for no other reason than I know I would never ever be able to make films as great as his, no matter how hard I worked at it. See what I mean? Since his type of cinema is hard to accomplish, cinematic architectural films usually aren't too good, if they are even made at all. Thus, audiences haven't had ample opportunity to get accustomed to it still-ahead-of-its-time sensibilities, and so it hasn't really impacted cinema to the degree that you naysayers reading this will probably insist a historically important film such as L'Avventura must have. The inability of subsequent filmmakers to "keep up" with Antonioni's ahead-of-the-curve cinema personifies his virtues as a cinematic master, make no mistake about it.

With regard to L'Avventura and it's ending:

By the end of the film, Monica Vitti's character has gone from meandering about in implicit deference to male domination (and not just human males, but male structures, again the idea of strong, dominant, "male" architecture defining an alienated state), to realizing that she, in fact, is dominant. Actually, it is her duty to take control from that point forward. In point of fact, it is the male sex who is more emotionally dead. He compensates through brute force posturing and sexual flings (the oft-stated eros idea) to subjugate the female, which is simply an emotional cover-up.

In the final shot of L'Avventura, Antonioni sublimely summarizes everything he has to say: the female, the up-till-now dormant volcano, now able to self-realize and overcome, even supercede, the blank wall that is the male, he who is looking for love and can't find it without the pity of the female, conveyed through the motherly pat on the back of the head Claudia (Monica Vitti) gives Sandro.

And this fundamental idea, is not just Antonioni's mental complex ("that filmmaker has some serious issues, dude"); I can point to examples where this idea manifests itself in our real world, today. Didn't Nancy Pelosi this week essentially concretely bring to fruition what I wrote in the previous paragraph happens at the end of L'Avventura?

The plot of the film is the internal emotional adventure, which certainly has an arch. The plot is not the coordinates that the characters externally move between. To complain that Antonioni doesn't resolve his films is to miss this basic understanding. To say that nothing happens at end of L'Avventura is a terribly gross cinematic misunderstanding. The end of the film presents a truly epic emotional revolution comparable in its magnitude to the physical transformation across time that transpires throughout 2001: A Space Odysee. It is a purely THE Adventure, told in a truely original manner.


I'm sure I have failed to write all that I had hoped to with this post; after all, it's hard to coherently write all that you have to say about a topic on the first draft, so I hope that your reactions to what I have written continues to further continued potent discussion. Thanks.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Movies (Theatrical)
Home Theater Forum › Home Theater Forum › Entertainment › Movies (Theatrical) › Sight and Sound (2002) Greatest Films Club