Sight and Sound (2002) Greatest Films Club - Page 93

This isn't true. I distinctly remember some tournament polls a few years ago where he voted against films he claimed to think were awful, then when some of these films were discussed elsewhere several months later, it was revealed he'd never seen them. He no doubt didn't recall having previously claimed to have seen them, or at least didn't think anyone else would remember. He's done the same thing with music, a subject on which he's similarly...not as knowledgable as he could be.

Donald,

Please give specifics, regarding either music or movies. I do recall, way back when we first started doing polls, that I would vote against a film I hadn't seen. But I never claimed to have seen those films, rather there was disagreement about whether one needed to abstain if they hadn't seen both films. It soon became clear that there was a concensus that people should abstain if they haven't seen both films, and from that point on I have done so. So, if you are talking about a long time ago, I think you are just misunderstanding why I would vote against a film I hadn't seen. If you're talking more recently, either you are mistaken, or else I made a mistake of one sort or another (e.g., got 2 films confused - I know I've done this in the past with Gates of Heaven and Heaven's Gate for instance). As for music, again, if you are talking about me voting in a poll for the Beatles against some rap group I've never heard, then again, that was not me claiming I'd heard the rap group, but a position that I did at one time espouse - that it was ridiculous for me to abstain when there was a 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 999% chance (I'm underestimating it of course) that I would prefer the Beatles to some rap group.

Although I am a newer member of this forum, I have found George quite articulate in expressing why he did not like a movie--even when he was wrong .

Of course most of us have likes and dislikes as to general types of art that may cause us to have views on specific works that we have not seen or heard.

George's instance of rap music is an excellent example.

Most of us understand however, that this is truely prejudging the specific work.

Well George, you did just say something about (and this is a total paraphrase) not seeing what the big deal was about Mamet based on just seeing The Heist, one of his least successful efforts, and his most generic. But I agree that in the main, you don't prejudge anymore than is natural. Everybody does this to some extent. You won't see me watching Agent Cody Banks in this lifetime.

But I understood virtually every Bunuel movie I've seen far more than whatever you were trying to say Seth. Again, you're making blanket statements about "flawed" logic, when there are many other people who do not see such a thing at all, or don't mind if they do, because they are entertained, moved, enlightened or whatever.

Artists, even Tarkovsky, generally want to be understood and liked, a basic human quality. But not all of them choose to appeal to some mass common denomenator of entertainment either. There are artists who simply create, express themselves, etc, and hope that an audience finds the work. Because the work doesn't appeal to you, only means that it is a lesser work to you.

Like George's lack of interest in "character studies". But I would say that belittles the film, because it isn't just about an old man, it's about things like how the young relate to the old, how our lives don't turn out the way we plan them, the experience of being at the end of one's life, etc, all things that resonate with this viewer far beyond watching a simple "character study".

The film I watched last night The Browning Version, could also be termed that way. But it has a myriad of interacting relationships, a critique of British society and mannered classes, etc along with sharing themes with Wild Strawberries. The main character resonates deeply with me and Michael Redgrave's acting is absolutely brilliant.

I think about the movie and wonder how any "film fan" couldn't admire it, but there is no film that appeals to everyone and trying to appeal to everyone is often a grave mistake; yet it is committed constantly.

Brook,


A great post - I agree with you in every respect and I couldn't have said it better myself!

Not to be too picky, what I said was which was really a comment about just that one film. I wasn't really generalizing from the one film to a general opinion about Mamet, but rather taking a widely held opinion about Mamet, and relating it to one specific film. Well, that may be largely a difference in terminology. When I say "character study", I include all the various interactions of characters that are, for lack of a better term, character driven, rather than plot driven. And again, I certainly have no objective criticism of character studies, or character driven films, simply the subjective observation, that I rarely find them interesting, and almost never interesting enough to watch a second time.

To keep things in perspective, Wild Strawberries is probably closer to a film I love (The Seventh Seal) than it is to a film I hate (Cries & Whispers). Long before Cries & Whispers was over, I hated that film with more loathing that I can express. By the end of Wild Strawberries, though it had never turned into a magical experience that I would want to see again, it never bothered me, and I certainly don't dislike it, let alone hate it, I'm really pretty neutral on it, which by my scale is actually high praise for a character study.

Les Dames du Bois de Boulogne

There are films I love, films I hate, and then there are films that I don't feel very strongly about one way or another. Some of those are memorable at least, others like this one, are so lightweight that I've already forgotten almost all of it. Not really the cinematic equivalent of Chinese food, more like the cinematic equivalent of a rice cake.

As someone who is gets a lot of flack for liking supposedly lightweight Hollywood fare, I can think of many, many such films that are more deserving of a place on this list than this one.

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Two or Three Things I Know About Her -
06/30/2005
OARVHS

My third Godard and this is the first to really stick with me. I'm fascinated by the mixture of documentary and fiction in the monologues of the women. At the same time there is a veneer of sexism running through the entire film that I can't quite place as either deliberate commentary or as an artifact of the way we 'look' at women in film. Although I was pretty bored throughout the film, I'd watch this again on the big screen, because it has its moments and has the potential to grow in my estimation.

For me, there's even a higher percentage!

Shoah Part II -
OARVHS
07/02/2005

still the final 30 minutes to go, but this is an astounding record to watch, repetitive and methodical its still horrifyingly compelling to watch. Just astonishing the unrelenting annihilation (shoah) that took place. The film/historical record drives it home again and again and again and again. It's almost incomprehensible (but more comprehensible) to put it in such personal terms of individual remembrances of the past, many of which are often very difficult for the survivor to describe.

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Ordet -
OARDVD
07/03/2005

Just an astonishing film, one of the best treatments of religion I've ever seen on film. Powerful, intense film that stunned me on every level. Damn.

Adam

Take a break and watch a romantic comedy Adam.

Very powerful stuff to watch back to back.

Dryer is at the very top of my list.

I was interspersing tapes of Shoah with Laughs films for quite a while actually and between that and Ordet I watched A League of their Own, can't get much lighter than that (outside of Disney).

Yes, that is true Rich. I agree with your entire post. Muholland Drive comes to mind as a film that is just extremely watchable to me and was even the first time I saw it and was half lost.

I resolve this by considering that films might be able to imply some "reasoning" or "meaning" by an innate flow not found explicitly in the narrative.

For example, a film could simply double the number of people in each scene with no explanation, perhaps without taking note of it in the narrative. You might subconciously pick up on this pattern and sense a logic without actually thinking about it.

And then there is also the "logic" of art itself, a color, form or shape just seems right, is something you find interesting to look at. This area of psychological science is still wide open, but it could be that someday we find that there are cues that we pick up on and identify as "good" or "correct" which gives the "subjective" art its appeal.


But in the "weird for weird's sake" view, how do we judge a person's work when they aren't intentionally creating these patterns, when their work is actually simplistic in their logic (I'll put in a racoon to represent a bandit because it has its own mask) even if it seems intricate and confusing to the audience (what does that racoon mean in the middle of the sex scene?).

The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari

The expressionist production design is very interesting and the best thing about this film. Unfortunately, it gets bogged down by horrendous (if typical) silent overacting, and a story that just doesn't work for the most part. Still, I can see this as important enough historically, that I have no real problem with it's place on this list.

This film did lead me to one line of thought that I hadn't previously had. Unlike other films with abstraction (e.g., Bunuel), this one clearly had as it's most pronounced non-reality the set design. And, frankly, in a play this would have worked. In a film, it's an interesting (though to me, a failed) experiment. But I got to thinking about how things are stylized in plays and work for me there, but not in film. And then I thought about other abstract films, and the supporters of those films, and I just got to wondering. How many people who love Bunuel and all kinds of stylized weirdness in film, have ever complained about films like The Odd Couple, or 12 Angry Men or Barefoot in the Park as being to stagey?

CABINET is probably the most respected of those early German horrors but I prefer NOSFERATU and DER GOLEM. I still love CABINET though. It's true that there isn't much of a story but I think the style or "weirdness" is what's supposed to carry the film.

The "silent acting" style has never really bothered me because I don't try to compare it to "sound" acting if that makes any sense. Silent comedy is probably something completely different but when it comes to dramatic acting in silents, I think very few would be considered good compared to something in sound, which is a shame. I think Lon Chaney could have made the jump fairly well and I'd still put his acting up against just about anyone. I've come to expect the silent acting as a part of a silent film just as much as the fact that there's no sound.

Since there wasn't any sound the typical "sound" acting just wouldn't work in a silent feature.

I have never complained about The Odd Couple, or 12 Angry Men, or Barefoot in the Park (or The Winslow Boy, or Glengarry Glen Ross, or Henry V) as being to stagey.


Cees

That's how I felt about it the first (and only -- so far) time I watched it. It's one of the better silent horrors IMO.

I love Cabinet and Expressionism in general, far more than Surrealism.

After all, Sunrise is also shot with lots of Expressionsism and its one of the best ever. Same for Frankenstien and Bride of. Cinema is a visual medium, so visual styings can be very effective.

It's not just the set pieces either, but also the lighting and direction.

F for Fake

An intriguing film to watch once, though I'd certainly never sit through it again. Not a great, nor even a good film, but damned interesting if you've never seen it. It only has one joke (Welles explanation of the last 17 minutes), but that's more laughs than a lot of so-called comedies, and this isn't even a comedy.

Actually this film made me quite sad. It's clear that Welles still had a lot of good ideas, and was still a good storyteller, and he comes across as a man that actually has another Citizen Kane in him. That he wasn't able to pull it all together for this film is sad, and that he never made another one is even sadder.

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I have tried to make the point (perhaps failing) that some movies (a notable example being Barefoot in the Park appear to me to be presented too much as though they were on the stage and (those movies) did not take advantage of the very many cinematic techniques that could (not necessarily would) make the movie more effective as a movie.

Another example is much of the singing and dancing in South Pacific, where much seems directly taken from Broadway, even to the routines being largely horizontal in nature and where the camera work seems routine.

Now this does not mean that I dislike or don't enjoy:

We got sunlight on the sand,
We got moonlight on the sea;
We got mangos and bananas we can pick right off a tree...,

it only means that Logan and company could (not would) have made a better movie by using techniques not possible on the stage.

BTW, Cees, I don't place Henry V in that group. Although Oliver's stage training is very evident as he brings Shakespear's character to the screen, the movie is very clearly a movie, not a play with several scenes not only extremely cinematic, but not even possible on the stage.

IT's not completely too late. But The Conformist, which was never before released on video in OAR is showing letter boxed tonight at 2AM EST 11PM PST on TCM.

The Conformist -
OAR TCM cablecast
in English
07/08/2005
184th film

this film would be worth watching five times just for the editing, and another for the cinematography. Breathtaking work. The match editing in the first five minutes as he moves through the city through intersecting and overlapping lines in the background either architecture or shadows or shaped by light playing over him. Just gorgeous piece of work. I give this a three star ranking because I know this film will grow on me and I will watch it again. It's excellent and I'd like to see the original language (though I could have sworn from the excellent lip matches this was originally done in English but with all dialogue ADR loop).

On the other hand, I did begin to lose interest about fifteen minutes after the Plato's Cave sequence, I felt the film reached its height there and just sort of slowly disintegrated to its inevitable ending. Not necessarily a bad point but it seemed the film didn't sustain itself after that. However the prayer scene with the child at the end made up for the slight lag before that. Outstanding, just outstanding. I was insanely excited by the production qualities of this film from start to finish, though I somewhat wish the long silent stretch of the wedding reception was not quite so long, but it made a point about the pointlessness of a celebration in which he's not participating for insitutions he doesn't believe in other than as a way to disapear...

heh, interesting B day, first Bogdanovich, then my first Bertolucci.

The proper version is Italian language, but as with virtually all Italian films pre-80's (and a good deal of them right up to the present), it was dubbed and wasn't shot with sync sound. An Italian member of a film listserv I'm on recently commented that the dubbers have a union and are an institution in the Italian film industry.

I strongly agree. The same with his Richard III which has the camera track out with the king and court only to then push back through the door to find Richard alone and brooding.

Olivier specifically placed the camera in a way to take advantage of its unique perspective on things, the ability to isolate a character to to establish a perspect (such as looking in a window to suggest the illicit spying going on).


I think the film version of Chicago also took great advantage of its unique medium compared to a stage production.

In fact some "films" are more stagey than film versions of stage work, just by the approach of showing scene, scene, scene with little camera work or editing techniques.

Shoah final tape -
07/09/2005

I thought I was the last Jew...


So ends the powerful testimony of the survivor of the Jewish resistence in the warsaw ghetto, Overall very powerful documentary.

Oh, I agree. It seemed in place in that sequence, in a funny way, because the film starts so typically on stage, in fact the old Old Vic.


Cees

Earrings of Madame of de... -
OARLD
07/10/2005
185th film

Ophuls is 0 for 2 in my book. THis has absolutely gorgeous photography, but for the life of me I couldn't get the slightest bit interested in the film. The one exception was the wonderful section that is a montage progression of a series of Vienna Waltzs as the titular character falls into adulterous love with Victoria De Sica's Italian baron. but overall just did not care much for the story.

Adam

A Matter of Life and Death (aka A Stairway to Heaven) -
07/10/2005
OARVHS (taped off TV)
186th S&S film

One is starved for technicolor up there

The opening across the heavens intrigued me but I was rivited once David Niven and June came on screen. The long opening scene between them, communicating over the radio, was just tremendous. This followed by the black and white view of 'the other world' was enormously effective. Breathtaking from end to end and it's just absolutely perfect until the extended business with Abraham Farlan about whether or not British and Americans can trust each other and get along or something that really has nothing to do with the plot and is a bit offputting because its so sillyly off topic.

The photography was stunning (Cardiff is simply magnificent and I really must rewatch Black Narcissus sometime soon)at least from what I could tell from a degraded shifting tape with poor tracking. It was still stunning to watch but I really really want a dvd of this film right Now!

Seen

The Conformist (1970)

Three hundred and nine seen

Thirty four to go

The Conformist
I wasn't bothered by the dubbing at all, and actually found most of the dub acting to be good and on par with the visual presentation of the character. There is a sequence that I had nothing but silence, at the party (at a blind school?) fairly early on. I suspect this was an MPG issue with the Tivo, but could be the film itself. It was only about 30 seconds and perhaps 8-10 lines.

Pretty good film, I enjoyed it though I didn't love it. The visual style reminded me a bit of Fellini, though the narrative wasn't nearly as extreme in the area of oddness. I think the visual style of the film drew me in more than anything which is why I sit on the liked it POV instead of blah.

Didn't blow me away, but solid.


Baby Doll
Pretty good film but not up to par with Kazan's Waterfront, nor a film with a sort of similar setting/plot, Malick's Days of Heaven. Its solid Kazan but not his best. I wouldn't put it on this list I think as Kazan is better represented by other films.

The Navigator
Basically I felt the same way here as I did with Baby Doll. This is not Keaton's best film and just doesn't compare well with The General or Sherlock Jr. It's good, but not great, and I wouldn't put it on this list.

A Taste of Cherry
This is my first Kiarostami film and I did like it. But there just isn't much going on. It feels like a 25 minute film drug out for a couple of hours. He takes long drives on mountain roads, talks to a couple of strangers right out of the blue, and that's it.

It has a good tone, I do think its a contemplative film, but it just goes on long than warranted (see the Stargate sequence of 2001 for a similar example). I have Wind Will Carry Us on deck, so we will see how I react to that.

I fully understand the presence on the list since it represents a region that is generally woefully underrepresented in the film arts. Plus his visual style struck me a bit like Almadovar's, albiet without the flair and certainly without the dramatic character interaction within the scenes.



I have my count at 229 down, 115 titles left to view. 29 this year so far, a bit ahead of my previous 45 per year rate.

And Adam's discussion of Shoah has me intrigued to watch it, despite the length.