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Monthly Post: How do YOU know what cables to buy?

post #1 of 37
12/13/02 at 1:36pm
Thread Starter 
Here we go again...for those of you just receiving your latest issue of DVD ETC. Magazine...you will notice that we published the forum thread on DVD versus D-VHS. Some of the responses to this Thread will be published in March. The topic at hand: How do YOU know what cables to buy? Magazines rarely, if ever, review cables. So what criteria do you base your buying decision on when shopping for higher-end cables? Overall do you feel cables are essential to a good set-up or do you feel it's all marketing hype? Please keep the responses short and sweet and we appreciate your input.
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post #2 of 37
12/13/02 at 5:51pm
I believe cables are a product of deminishing returns. The difference between the stock, hair thin wires and a $20 'high' performance set from Rat Shack definately shows a difference. But then the difference from the $20 to the $50 'brand name' isn't as staggering. Then the difference between the $50 'brand name' and the $100 'elite' is practically non-existant. I have rarely been impressed by the difference between $20 'high' performance cables and $100 'elite' performance cables during side by side tests at least to the point that makes it worth the money. I think it is mostly hype, but only when you get beyond the 'brand name' quality cables.

It does sadden me when I see someone buy a brand new speaker setup and they end up using the 50 cent 24ga speaker wire that came with the system.
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post #3 of 37
12/15/02 at 10:24am
Thread Starter 
Jason, you have responded with some valid points and the ever popular argument of "diminishing returns." I have several arguments for the importance of cable that I would like to throw out there in hopes that it will light up this thread a bit...

"DVD Enthusiasts" argue technical specs all day long on the HTF and other forums. But none of those specs are worth more than the paper they're printed on without connections capable of relaying those dynamics.

I have to argue that anyone who owns more than 20 DVDs (which is pretty much 99.9% of the HTF members) can afford to make the investment on cables--and should. When it comes to diminishing returns, tell me what other component in your system will last forever? Software? Maybe. Cables, definitely. If speaker wire makes a difference, then doesn't the RCA cables before the amplified output? What use is increased dynamic headroom in the speaker wire if the dynamics aren't there in the first place?
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post #4 of 37
12/15/02 at 2:03pm
I will not list brand names, but, for several reasons, I choose to go to companies specializing in good quality cables, which, if necessary can be customized to meet my needs. I had used many of the mass market cables and interconnects in the past and rarely, if ever, noticed a difference in sound or picture quality. I don't do double-blind tests, so this has to be taken as only my impressions to a large extent. My first cable that was ordered from a specialist company was one for my subwoofer. Did I notice a difference in the sound quality? I felt I did. The bass was better defined. Another difference I noticed that was there was the construction quality of the cable and its connects was much better. By the look and feel of the thing, I felt it would last a good deal longer. And, in actuality, it didn't cost more than cables I could have purchased at my local chain stores. Where I'm sure I noticed a difference was in the component cables I bought for my Mitsubishi HDTV. There was a noticable improvement in picture definition and color depth and it was observed by other members of my family as well. When I purchased a semi-hi-end CD player recently, the dealer suggested $400 audio interconnects and said the player would benefit from interconnects ranging all the way to $1000. I held off, but, not wanting to restrict the performance of my new player, did a huge internet search on cables. I finally found a custom cable maker that used very high quality parts and sold for an extremely (in fact, unbelievably good) price. This builder had received very positive reviews of his products, many by customers who had used pretty comparatively high end cables before. Most felt that his cables bettered the performance of cables they had used which cost much more. There wasn't a single negative review and this on a site where users of his product could write positive or negative comments. I bought two sets of his audio interconnects. I'm not an expert in these kinds of things, but the quality of build appeared exceptional. I will purchase new speaker cables from this man in the very near future. Again, the cost was perhaps less than certain interconnects commonly found at large chain type stores.

Oops, just noticed the keep it short part. So, my keep it short part is below. Sorry.


As a general rule, I want well built cables, using quality materials, that are more reasonably priced than some of the higher priced botique brands.
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post #5 of 37
12/16/02 at 11:38am
Thread Starter 
I agree with the pricing. I will never consider myself they type who will spend $1,000 on a 1 meter pair of interconnects. Some of the pricing has just gotten way out of line.
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post #6 of 37
12/16/02 at 3:38pm
Well Jason, although I have to agree with you on the diminishing returns remark, I do have to say that the resolution of the system also plays a part. Once upon a time I used to think that expensive cables were just voodoo, after all it is just wire isn't it? I have learned through experience that cables can make a signficant difference, and in a more ambitious system cheap cables can really hinder it. At one time I hooked up a good ($3K)processor to a good amplifier ($3.5K) using inexpensive interconnects (one step above Radio Shack) because that is what I had available at the time. When I put in better cables, the difference in soundstage, imaging, and clarity was not just subtle, but astounding. My fiance heard the difference from the next room and came in to ask me what I had done. Since that time, I have had the opportunity to experiment with many different cables, and the differences as they get more expensive are definitely more subtle, but that initial step into good interconnects and speaker cable is significant. Where that point is in dollars is different for different systems. I have to say that I have found the difference in between a $20 interconnect and a $100-$150 interconnect is like night and day, but when you move up to a $400 interconnect on a more ambitious system, the difference is more subtle, but once you hear it, it's hard to go back. I liken to having layers of material over your speakers, the better the cable, the more material is removed. After a while there is only a little veil left, and removing that only makes a very subtle change. Some of the more expensive cables are not necessarily "better", but add a different sound to the system that some people like, and are willing to pay for.
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post #7 of 37
12/16/02 at 5:34pm
I figured I would get some smack back with my post. :b

I admit I did over generalize but Clint did say to keep it short. If I had money to burn would I spend it on the best cables I could find? Of course. Would the average "mass market" Joe and Jane that DVD Etc. is aimed at? No. They probably don't have a $3k processor or amplifier. They most likely have a $400 Sony or Kenwood. Would they really benefit from Elite cables or even a step down from Elite? Probably not. That is all that I used as my basis for what cables they would most likely benefit the most from. Now if they or I did have that kind of equipment then heck yeah, throw the best cables you can find at them.

Overall I think we all are on the same page, just at different scales. As the old saying goes, your system is only as good as your weakest link. In most systems, that weakest link are the cables.
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post #8 of 37
12/16/02 at 7:37pm
Jason, absolutely no intention on my part to "smack" you, just rather put out my thoughts and how they have evolved over time. I agree with you completely that cables are dependant on the system, and for a person with an inexpensive system, expensive cables are not the place to put your money. Even those with relatively inexpensive systems would realize some benefit from decent speaker cables to the front three, and some decent digital interconnects. For example Audioquest Type 6 is not terribly expensive, and neither is Nordost Flatline, and they do a very nice job as speaker cables. Those with more expensive, revealing (and yes, those may be mutually exclusive) systems may benefit from even better cables.
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post #9 of 37
12/16/02 at 9:00pm
Manoj, Nah, I meant in that 'tounge in cheak' kinda way. No harm done.

And I definately agree with your post. Early this year I went from some generic 16ga speaker wire to oxygen free 12ga and I definately heard a difference.

I wonder what the opinion is of those that make their own cables.
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post #10 of 37
12/17/02 at 8:20am
I see cabling as the cardiovascular system of any HT. With that in mind, I buy the best cables that I can afford, just like I buy the best HT equipment that I can afford.
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post #11 of 37
12/17/02 at 1:13pm
Just to chime in here...

Jason, your original comment about the 24ga speaker wire included with many low-end systems is right on. My sister-in-law and her husband recently purchased a Kenwood "Home-Theater-in-a-Box" and it came with the thinnest speaker wire I have ever seen. When I helped them set everything up, better speaker wire was among my fist suggestions for improvement.

Sometimes I think that cheap red/white/yellow RCA interconnects and floss-like speaker wire should just be left out of the box. Many people tend to use what's in the box, never realizing their system's untapped potential.
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post #12 of 37
12/17/02 at 7:27pm
Thread Starter 
Excellent point Ronn...and I've nver heard it put that way.
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post #13 of 37
1/9/03 at 5:46pm
When I was looking for speaker wire, the guy selling it likened it to a straw. The bigger the wire is, the more you can get out of it.
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post #14 of 37
1/9/03 at 6:56pm
That makes sense except it can get to a point where that extra 'pipe' does nothing but deminish your wallet. It is using a fire hose on your backyard water spicket. Sure the fire hose can support a lot more water but your spicket can only pump out so much.

I think the overall concensus here is to match the cables to your system. Even the most basic low end system can benefit from a cable upgrade over the stock cables but you don't need to get the best thing on the market to do so.
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post #15 of 37
1/11/03 at 6:57am
Quote:
I think the overall concensus here is to match the cables to your system. Even the most basic low end system can benefit from a cable upgrade over the stock cables but you don't need to get the best thing on the market to do so.


Very accurate summary.
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post #16 of 37
1/13/03 at 5:51am
The cable wars will continue ad infinitum. I liken the issue to that of a Rorschach ink blot test. When shown the ink blots there are a group of people that will insist they see nothing more than an ink blot. These are the people that will also insist that a cable's specifications and measurements are what define it's sound.

Then there are those that will see a variety of things in the ink blots. These are the individuals that will hear the variances in cables regardless of what the specifications and measurements say. The funny thing is that although they are all looking at the same ink blot, they do not all see the same image. The blot has not changed from viewer to viewer but the image has. Although the cable's specs have remained constant, the interpretation of their sound varies from individual to individual.

I am of the camp that says to assume any of our senses work any differently is foolhardy. Each of us will hear, see taste, smell, and feel differently and interpret those things in a way unique to us...regardless of the stability of the input stimulus. A cables sound must be more than the sum of its measurements just as the ink blot is more than any measurement that can be applied to it.

As to how to get information...one must listen for ones self. Try cables with return policies and keep your mind open. There are a variety of sources for "cable reviews". The internet is a place to gather user preferences and a good starting place. Find a user that has similar tastes to yours and that you may agree with on things of the sonic nature and see what they are using. Reviews are nice, but see what they are actually using in their systems.

"Try before you buy" is always the best policy. Keep that open mind and make your own decision. If you hear the differences that is really all that matters.

Mike
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post #17 of 37
1/21/03 at 10:37am
I bought some Pure Sonic RCA, gold connectors, and the diference with my sony optical, it´s just amazing.

I say go for better cables.
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post #18 of 37
1/22/03 at 7:58am
I seriously question the "popular wisdom" of spending 20% of your equipment budget on cables. That's just marketing hype designed to enrich the manufacturers of OVERPRICED so-called "premium" cables. It's akin to DeBeer's creating the now-popular belief that it is necessary to spend two month's salary on an engagement ring. My system, including H/K receiver, Toshiba DVD Player, H/K 2-ch amp, Definitive speakers, SVS sub, and a Toshiba 32" analog TV is modest, but still tips the scales at about $4500. Do I honestly need to spend $900 on cables?? I don't think so!
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post #19 of 37
3/9/03 at 6:41am
Hello: I'm a new member who is going to purchase a complete HT system in early December of this year. All the discussion in this forum regarding cables has been interesting and informative. The dealer I am using suggested just what you all are saying, use quality cables at the mid-point. I'll be interested in the up-coming reviews in the magazine. Thanks for the assistance!
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post #20 of 37
9/28/03 at 4:41pm
No one has really pointed out the fact no matter how much you pay or don't pay, other than maybe some speaker cable, NO ONE gives the wire gauge in any specs of any of these shielded cables either audio or video.

Forget the fancy gold connectors, forget the heavy jacket/insulation. None of that really means a whole lot if the center conductor is 26 gauge even if it is just a short jumper let alone one over 15'!
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post #21 of 37
9/29/03 at 6:27am
I liken good video and audio cables to glasses and hearing aides.

For people that have never used either, but need to, once they get them the difference is profound.

Cables are aides to your system. If you really care about how your video collection looks on your monitor and audio collection is reproduced out of your speakers investing in good audio and video cables is a must.

So like a hearing aide or a pair of glasses you will never know what you have been missing until you try them out.

Parker
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post #22 of 37
9/29/03 at 7:10am
Fine and dandy, but you still don't know what you are getting without cutting open a cable and looking!
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post #23 of 37
9/30/03 at 10:01pm
I have to chime in..
You are right not to put the cheapest cable one can find into your system, however to pay $600 plus on speaker cables is nuts! A very sharp Engineer once told me "remember the wire is attached to an Amp that has gold traces the width of a dime"! If you know what the sound for example goes through BEFORE you get it at home on a DVD, you'd laugh at spending a ton of money on cables. People on the Pro end of things are arguing about A/D and D/A converters, sampling rates and DAW's and their sound on the product. Don't become paranoid about all the hype, learn to listen in a room that is calibrated for both Sound and Picture and enjoy!! Spend your money on the DVD's and going to the Theater. Read up and learn!
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post #24 of 37
10/8/03 at 6:40am
My thought on cables,
Two things that make the most difference to me in cables is the wire gauge and the difference between silver and copper.
I never heard any difference from oxygen free copper versus regular copper given that they are the same gauge and same type of construction. There are also no diffence heard between 99.9% copper and 99.999% copper.
Thicker gauge cables generally give more bass but the bass is not as controlled. If the gauge is too small you lose soundstage and the system sounds closed-in and lifeless.

Do this experiment and draw your own conclusion. Buy a roll of thin insulated magnet wire from Radio Shack (around $2.50)cut the wires into four pieces and use them as speaker cables (2 pieces for each speaker). You will hear a very noticeable difference from the thick cables you're use to especially in the lower region. Do not use a subwoofer on this experiment.
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post #25 of 37
10/8/03 at 4:30pm
The only thing worse then paying BIG bucks for cables you have no idea guage they are is buying ink jet cartridges from the printer manufacture!

But the stores love them:

GROSS PROFIT MONSTERS!! (a favorite expression from a store manager I worked for)
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post #26 of 37
11/3/03 at 6:47am
Hi

Inner Ear Magazine (Canadian) is one of the few I've seen that not only feels its qualified to review cables/wire/cord, I think their survival depends on it. If you Google it you'll see what I mean.

They devote quite a bit of space in the current issue reviewing Nordost with per meter pricing.
Although my perception of their phraseologys is not unique to them there is a great deal of what I've generally lumped into the category of "Seemingly vague, but Actually meaningless", although their goal is the contrary.

I'm definitely not suggesting that Nordost doesn't make excellent products. I just don't happen to be important enough or my ears sophisticated enough to own any.

My system has 10 speakers plugged into it including the sub. I use 5 plus the sub for music and when it comes to film, they all get a chance to contribute.

In order to have the 6 rears plugged in, the speaker cable does alot of meandering along the baseboards and around door frames and the like and due to the number of speakers, repeats that path 3 times. I therefore try and use as flat a cable as possible for the sake of neatness.

I lust over those Nordost cables (not because of their quality) because their so darn flat.

Perhaps due to the fact that the longest run from the reciever are the rears, the cables should probably be the highest guage (thickest,"maybee I should say lowest guage")
but there the thinest available in long rolls, whereas the fronts are bi-wired with thinner going to the tweeter and thickest going to the wooffer. I think their all Monster Cable and everything sounds great to me and anyone whose been in my media room, (and is hopefully being candid).

There are probably those who will read this and suggest that I don't know what I'm missing, so be it.

I use 5 Totem Model 1 speakers for music and NHT SUB II and have over 170 HIREZ discs which I play through a Denon 5800/03, (has 2 sets of analog ins) and mltidisc entry level sacd and dvd-a players.

My feeling about bass management for music is that its a tempest in a teapot and you've probably gotten the gist of my philosophy by now, but just in case I'll spell it out.

I listen to music, not my equipment, and deffinitely not my cables.

Peter m.
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post #27 of 37
11/18/03 at 6:21am
Clint, let me start by saying I am a subscriber to your magazine and really enjoy it. I also understand that you, as many other magazines, receive a lot of advertisment dollars from cable companies.

The cable debate is very old and full of truths, myths, and marketing hype. If you really wanted to stir things up a bit, how about devoting some tests using the scientific method? Set up a couple of double blind tests. Gather test audiences that range from classical musicians and professional video people to joe 6p's. The truth is out there.
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post #28 of 37
11/18/03 at 11:14pm
this is a very interesting thread. I'm a HT newbie and am about to buy a Denon 3803 with an M&K 5 speaker setup (K7 and K4) with either an SVS, Hsu or Velodyne subwoofer.

I have 2 rear speakers (M&K K4s) that need to have flat wiring run to it as the wires will need to be run under an area rug in the middle of my living room. This saves me from having to run the cables through the walls, or worse, run along the baseboards.

Most "flat" speaker cable I've seen is 16ga with a few companies that have 12ga.... if anyone has any tips!
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post #29 of 37
11/19/03 at 1:22pm
Trevin, not sure on the load of the K4's but with 16g wire, your maximum workable length should probably be 40 to 50 feet.
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post #30 of 37
11/19/03 at 6:18pm
Thread Starter 
Hey Gang,

I sure have had a good time reading through all the posts to this thread. It seems to be never ending--and such is the debate between aftermarket cables versus "stock" cables.

To the gentleman that stated he listens to music, not his equipment and not his cables--I say then you've never really heard your music.

This all comes down to that of resolution on both audible and visual planes. How important is resolution to YOU?

If I was to go buy recent CEA sales figures I would say that most consumers don't give a hoot about high fidelity sound anymore. Everything today is focused on High Def Video. And more and more consumers are apt to go out and drop 3 to 10 times as much on video equipment as they are audio. How quickly we forget that the video industry was born of the audio industry.

Back in the day I worked at a small little home theater shop right around the time that Laser Discs were the rage and we were hearing rumors about DVD.

My buddies and I would spend our time debating on what speaker or amp was better than another and so on. One day we cut open the three "levels" of Monster Cable RCA's -I think Interlink 200, 400 and 500? Anyway, we connected them up and did double blind fold testing over "stock" cables. Unequivocally we all noticed a tremendous improvement from stock to Interlink 200 and very subtle difference between the 400 and 500. We determined that not only were cables critical, but that the "middle of the road" proved to be the best value--at least in that Monster line. I have been sold on cables ever since.

Truth is, I really don't care what "gauge" the wire is...nor the "specs" of the cable itself. I care about the end result. Period.

Likewise, I will not argue that cable manufacturers spend money with us. But the truth is, I don't support cable because we get ad dollars. I support cables because I believe it represents an improvement in your home theater experience. I would not cover them otherwise. At the end of the day, cable ad dollars represent about 2% of our total revenue--and even if it represented 50% I would call it boguss if I thought it was. (51% however...?)

The kicker here is that cables are the easiest component to "rent" to conduct independent evaluations. I say "buy 'em and try 'em" and tell me that I'm wrong.

Making the statement, "cable is cable" is just plain ignorant. That would be like saying an 100-watt amplifier cannot be any better sounding than any other 100-watt amplifier no matter what materials they use.

I use my 57 year old father-in-law as the perfect example of how important cables are. He wanted a sound system "just like mine." (Who wouldn't? ) And so being the great son-in-law and cheapskate that I am I replaced the RCA's between his CD player and receiver and also upgraded his speaker wires.

The man swears to this day that I installed new speakers. He and my mother-in-law listen to the same CD's every day of their life for the past 6 years (sad, but true) and they sat in their living room in awe of their cheap stereo. Argue the point of diminishing returns all you want...it cost me all but $40 to introduce them to high-fidelity.

Guys, this isn't about ad-dollars. It's not about snake oil. It's about getting the best out of your system plain and simple. Your feedback is my reward and that is the truth.
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