Saw Buffy & Angel Seasons - first time. Inconsistent in quality So good but so bad

Ryan Wishton · 02-13-2006, 06:48 AM

I just saw Buffy and Angel really for the first time really. I have seen episodes before, but this is the first time I went straight through.

The first Buffy Season I saw episodes from was Season 7. I thought at the time it was a truly terrible show and never did understood what the fuss was about. But, I decided to go back to earlier seasons.

I don't think I have seen such an inconsisent show. I watched Season 2 which in itself seemed like a completely different show. It takes itself pretty seriously. Not completely, but it has a very good balance. I was interested in the storyline and I thought it was a very good season (sans some of the stand alone episodes). This is the overall tone I think this show should have stuck with. A more serious approach, but with subtle comedy scattered when and if needed.

I then watched Season 5. Once again, it seems like a different show. This season seemed like a soap opera with more added cheese. But, I still enjoyed it in a campy way. But, not in the way I did season 2. This season seemed more like Dark Shadows/Passions/90210 Buffy. But, I thought it was fine.

The tone for me seriously changes between seasons. I go from really liking the show to really trying to keep my eyes open.

I really don't know if I have seen a show that has been so very good (season 2), but yet so very bad (season 7) all at the same time. Well, I am sure I have.

Angel I think I preferred better as a show. But, once again there is very inconsistant quality. An excellent show is somewhere in here trying to bury it's way out, but then is ruined with some truly horrible episodes and some over the top lame comedy that just doesn't fit in with the tone of the show. This show seemed to always go for an adult approach, so I never saw the need for some of the lameness that presented itself.

I think Angel has a way of building up and the halting and sinking. Season 2 and 4 are examples of this IMO. Both build up storylines, have a nice flow, but then utterly sink by seasons end. I thought the final arcs of Season 2 and 4 were truly terrible episodes. Season 2 builds up a darker tone (especially when Darla is in the picture), but then flies into a cheesy lame final arc out of nowhere. Very disappointing for me. Season 4 I was interested in until around when Lilah dies. I thought the episodes after mid-point took a serious dive. The Jasmine ones I thought were especially terrible.

Season 5 of Angel I thought had a horrible first half, but then builds up quality once they return to a storyline (around the time Cordelia wakes up) and get rid of Eve. The finale in itself I thought was very creative and a good way to end a show. A cliffhanger we may never know the answer to. It just works, because it drives us crazy not knowing.

I don't know if I have seen two shows which I have liked very much, but disliked very much all at the same time.

It's like Three's Company (liked) vs. Three's a Crowd (hated) for me. But, even those were different shows.

I think maybe they should have ended Buffy at Season 3 and then just put all their concentration into Angel while having former characters do guest spots here and there. "I will remember you" was a very good episode and used the charatcer of Buffy very well. Her range in the final scene is excellent. I would have preferred to see Buffy as a character in this tone after High School was over. Her character could have worked on a serious approached show. On her own show she just seems so bitchy and cocky after awhile in later seasons.

Faith & Buffy were also both used well in "Five by Five" & "Sanctuary." I just liked the overall tone of the characters better in these episodes than how they were treated in later seasons of Buffy. Faith also just seems like a character who is more suited to Angel than Buffy. I would have liked to see her more on Angel doing several guest spots each year.

Could a adult oriented and toned show have worked with the characters of Angel, Buffy, & Faith? A mixture of earlier seasons of Buffy & Alias scattered with bits of a 24, a cop show, mythology, demons, etc.? I think so very much. Angel comes close to achieving this at points, but sort of sinks it here and there.

Here are some of my favorite episodes from both (There are others as well):

Buffy the Vampire Slayer:

Halloween (Season 2)
Surprise (Season 2)
Innocense (Season 2)
Bewitched, Botherered, & Bewildered (Season 2)
Passion (Season 2)
Becoming 2-parter (Season 2)
Amends (Season 3)
Revelations (Season 3)
The Wish (Season 3)
Earshot (Season 3)
Enemies (Season 3)
Graduation 2-parter (Season 3)
Hush (Season 4)
This Years Girl (Season 4)
Who Are You? (Season 4)
The Body (Season 5)
Forever (Season 5)
The Gift (Season 5) -For the ending which should have ended the show. Though I would have went one step futher & canned Buffy as a show after Season 3. The high school approach should have ended here. Take the characters of Buffy, Willow, & Faith and moved them over to Angel. Throw in Giles for guest spots and send Zander to a fiery hell on Graduation Day.

Episodes such as "Hush" and "The Body" could have easily worked just as well on Angel and were actually more suited to the tone of Angel IMO. Even Buffy's Death (The Gift) seems like something that would have and could have happened on Angel. She could have died on Angel: Season 2 instead of that horrible ending Arc season 2 of Angel had. At least for me.

The Season 7 finale was an insult to those from Season 2, 3, & 5 IMO with the truly lame fem. approach. Willow's hair turning white and the girl on the little leauge team getting slayer power was cringing for me and just so very, very lame. I have to admit I did laugh though after Anyas death. Zander is supposedly in love with her all the years and all he says is "thats my girl" with a halfway smile. What the hell kind of writing was that?

Angel:

City Of (Season 1)
I Will Remember you (Season 1)
Eternity (Season 1)
Five by Five (Season 1)
Sanctuary (Season 1)
Darla (Season 2)
Reunion (Season 2)
Epiphany (Season 2)
Disharmony (Season 2)
That Vision Thing (Season 3)
Billy (Season 3)
Offspring (Season 3)
Quickening (Season 3)
Lullaby (Season 3)
Tomorrow (Season 3)
Deep Down (Season 4)
Spin the bottle (Season 4)
Habeas Corpus (Season 4)
Calvary (Season 4)
You're Welcome (Season 5)
Not Fade Away (Season 5)

David Rogers · 02-13-2006, 08:43 AM

Every show has ups and downs, Buffy was no different in that regard. For example, I'm an Aaron Sorkin fan, and when he left West Wing I quit watching. Episodes I saw and heard about after his departure bore out the reason I quit watching; the other writers were trying to emulate him but not succeeding very well. Battlestar Galactica is a pretty excellent show, but even in the ~30 episodes we already have there are a few I'm not terribly pleased with. It's how it works.

As a general rule, Buffy was at it's best when Whedon was heavily involved in the episode (writing or closely supervising the writing, and also if he was available during the shooting and production). Buffy had Whedon involved to varying degrees during varying seasons; for example Buffy 4th and 5th had less Whedon (not that he was gone) because he was also working on Angel a lot. I think every Buffy fan I've ever talked to about the subject agrees 7th was a horrible season; nothing at all like the other 6. Marti Nox was the writer responsible for 7th, and I think it shows she was at her best when she had Whedon to closely support her.

The eps you listed tend to be among the fan favorites; most of 2nd and 3rd were truly excellent. Those two seasons also had very good and personal season storylines which further helped; their storylines closely tracked with the characters we loved, and made them better. 4th and 5th mostly tracked the Scoobies through "external" threats that were poised against them. 6th, with the Willow storyline, helped bring Buffy back "home" for the fans, and involved us in both the 'good' and 'bad' sides of the show like 2nd and 3rd seasons did.

I'd have to say though, I was very happy to see you name Halloween as a favorited episode. It's the chrysalis episode for Willow, and was a lot of fun to watch as she transformed from timid little mouse Willow into the Willow that went on to have such an impact in 6th. Definitely a favorite.

Ryan Wishton · 02-13-2006, 09:38 AM

I also forget to mention Gwen from Angel: Season 4.

They should have definately kept up with that character. Even though she was only in two episodes, I liked her.

I personally thought bringing back Buffy after Season 5 was just too contrived and unneeded. It just ruins such a powerful death. Buffy Summers is not a supernatural slasher going on to her 11th sequel. Though she's died or been near death enough by now. So, the whole thing just feels off for me.

They wrote it in ok and her return made sense. It all just seemed kind of cheap, lazy, and an excuse to make more money. At least to me.

Scott-S · 02-13-2006, 10:34 AM

Ryan, I agree with most of the comments about Buffy, but I think I had a much better overall opinion of the show than you. It was unclear from your description if you watched buffy all the way through all seasons. But since you listed your favorite episodes, I guess you have. That is what I did and I found as a whole that it was a great show. Sure there were episodes that weren't as good as the majority, but I think it averages out better than most other shows.

Watching it from the beginning, it was fun to see how the group grew up over the 7 years and how they changed.

I completely agree the season 7 ending was lacking. Seemed a little too "girl power-ish" and Xander's reaction was way out of character. But after watching some of the special features I understand what the writers were trying to do. It just didn't work for me.

How did you feel about the Musical Episode? I really enjoyed it and was glad they took the risk.

I am just now watching Angel for the first time. I am in season 2 so I can't really form an opinion yet, but I am enjoying it.

Patrick Sun · 02-13-2006, 10:37 AM

I kinda wish you'd used the existing threads for these shows instead of mushing the 2 together as you have because we're just going to cover the same territory once more, less feeling, perhaps a little more perspective.

The only thing I'll add is that your feelings don't take into account the climate on episodic TV at the time when both shows were on TV, especially since Buffy got its reprieve for season 6 and 7 by UPN ponying up the money because UPN wanted the target demographics that Buffy brought to the table at that point in time. Buffy could have easily ended at season 5, but for all the "not so good" episodes from season 6 and 7, there were still enough to enjoy overall for a 7-year arc.

Angel thread

Buffy box set season 1-7 thread

**HTF Ads**

Holadem · 02-13-2006, 11:33 AM

Yikes, LOST of spoilers in the original post.

More than the plot, it's the characterization and dialogue of these shows that make even bad episodes bearable.

S6 & S7 were certainly not up to 1-5, but I would much rather have them than not.

--
H

Kelly W · 02-13-2006, 11:50 AM

I am also thinking of giving Buffy a try-- the season sets are on sale this week at Best Buy.

I have only seen one or two episodes, but I didn't really care for them. I thought the dialogue was pretty lame; however, I have absolutely no idea what season they were from. They were some reruns recently shown in syndication.

Much like Ryan, I want to see what all the fuss is about. I am a huge Firefly fan, which was my introduction to Joss Whedon. I'm hoping that some of the appeal of Firefly will be evident in Buffy.

I'm planning to start with season 1 and see how that goes.

Does anybody have any advice for me? Is season 1 a good representation of the series as a whole?

Thanks a bunch!

-Kelly

MattHR · 02-13-2006, 12:39 PM

Quote:

I am also thinking of giving Buffy a try-- the season sets are on sale this week at Best Buy.

They'll be even cheaper in a few months.
http://tvshowsondvd.com/newsitem.cfm?NewsID=5086
Fox is repackaging the series in new, thinner cases and lowering their price. Best Buy is probably just trying to move their existing inventory before the new versions are released.

Michael Reuben · 02-13-2006, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Is season 1 a good representation of the series as a whole?

Like every other issue raised in this thread, this one already has a thread:

Buffy S1, Please tell me it gets better!

Buffy is like Star Wars -- everyone wants to start their own thread. Patrick gave several good links above, but since the hint isn't being taken, I'm closing this thread before it gets any longer.

In the future, expect to see new Buffy (and Angel) threads closed. Between this forum and the TV-on-DVD forum, there are existing threads covering every conceivable point that anyone could bring up.

M.