[Chris]

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On the other hand, for the majority of the series, Clark has been outright lying to people, keeping secrets. Even though he lets some people in on that, they in turn have to keep lying for him. The secret is kept for a good reason, but people like Lana and Chloe don't necessarily know that early on. To them, he's just a liar. And to the cops, he's always involved in the bad stuff in Smallville.

The way Kryptonite affects him isn't his fault, yet he can't very well tell Lana "gee, it's red krypto and I get all funky" or "it's silver K". It's all part of the secret.

Ok, I'm 1/2 way through Season 5 (with the senator dropping out of the race) and I find that I agree with Lex more and more and Clark less and less. I was really torn on the episode involving Aquaman. I say this not as a fight, but as an honest belief. Aquaman was basically an eco-terrorist. Clark acknowledged as much when he was willing to blow up people. Now, while I can villify Lex's tying him up and denying him water, from his viewpoint (and mine) this guy was a crazed terrorist who had no problem hurting anyone. Meanwhile, Clark's whiny attitude about Lex developing a weapon (Leviathon) struck me as beyond laughable. Lex runs a multi-national company with responsibilities.. even as a military contractor. And a defensive weapon that would be used primarily as a deterrent doesn't strike me as evil at all... to be honest, it'd probably go farther to promote peace then anything Clark has done. And Clark completely accepts Aquaman's posit without critically thinking through the situation and goes in and destroys private property. Unless we are to believe that the US Government, Lex's buyer, is some evil force, then this whole thing smacked me as way out of order.

It's just small things like that. If I were in Lex's shoes, I'd be investigating everything about Clark too, and Lex's dishonesty seems to be designed not to hurt people, whereas Clark's dishonesty and foibles seem to get people killed or harmed.

Clark made a demand of Lex that he stop researching meteor rocks. That's ludicris. From the first five seasons, it's pretty obvious that "meteor freaks" are a serious risk of doing immense societal harm. And the only reason they exist is because of the alien invasion that is Clark.

Lex researching how to repell the invasion strikes me as noble.

I love the comic book series and the movies. But I like the prism of this show too. I can see where others can find just as many reasons to villify Lex, whereas I look at them and say "yep". Lex, constantly bailing people out with money and resources. Providing access to cures. When things go wrong, he takes personal responsibility at grave risk (the cloud of gas that poisoned people with their dreams? Lex takes a chance on the cure that may kill when he's not infected as a test subject).

Clark's red kryptonite excuse is one of those things in the show that makes him out where it's hard to see him as not the bad guy (IMHO) because he's always subject to go over the edge and become an incredible danger. And, knowing that, he still did it, and I'm betting it can/will happen again.

I know it won't happen in the show, and Season 6 could change it, but if I -were- Lex, I'd do everything in my power to kill of Clark as fast as possible by whatever means, and pretty much consider myself a hero for doing it.

I'm just saying, looking at it only with the show, forgetting all the rest of the superman mythos.. I can far more understand and relate to the motivations of Lex then I can Clark.
(I did like the Buffy Sanders: Vampire episode.. very cute)

[Chris]

I say that and then in the 15th/16th episode, you finally start to build a Lex you can appreciate as legitimately harboring evil

[Chris]

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The LexLana "thing" is icky.

Down to two episodes left in Season 5, and hell, I think the Lex/Lana thing is great. Clark all moans and whines about what Lana sees in Lex.. we get the close up of him holding the bullet in the hospital wing having saved Lana..

But here's the thing.. Lex didn't know Clark would be there (or his powers) and he threw himself on Lana to try and shield her and sacrifice himself to save her. That's what Lana sees. It makes the second time he's done that this season, risked his own life to save hers..

Even if she knew about Clark's powers, his effort to "save" him would be minor in comparison because him throwing himself in front of a bullet for her would serve no consequences to him, whereas Lex doing it is him being willing to give his life for her. For all his faults, if I were Lana, even if I knew, I'd dump Clark.

And, besides, as the wife points out, Lex is a way more attractive actor

[Adam Lenhardt]

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Originally Posted by Chris

Ok, I'm 1/2 way through Season 5 (with the senator dropping out of the race) and I find that I agree with Lex more and more and Clark less and less.

It's Lex's certainty that he is right that makes me fear him. It's Clark's hesitancy and inner conflict that makes Clark the protagonist. Clark has a hell of a lot more on his plate than Lex, and has a hell of a lot less resources at his disposal to deal with it. Even when Clark makes the wrong decisions, it's generally for the right reasons. When Lex makes the right decision, it's almost always for selfish reasons.

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Now, while I can villify Lex's tying him up and denying him water, from his viewpoint (and mine) this guy was a crazed terrorist who had no problem hurting anyone.

But justice should be an impartial mechanism. If Aquaman is really as terrible as you say, Lex should have turned him over to the authorities instead of carrying out torture himself.
And what about level 33.1? Here's Lex's personal collection of various human beings held against their will without liberties for his own private interest and amusement.

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It's just small things like that. If I were in Lex's shoes, I'd be investigating everything about Clark too, and Lex's dishonesty seems to be designed not to hurt people, whereas Clark's dishonesty and foibles seem to get people killed or harmed.

Lex gets to choose what he's dishonest about. Clark, meanwhile, is only dishonest about the abilities he was born with. And every person who learns his secret has to carry his burden. When he lies — and usually he lies knowing full well what he's sacrificing in doing so — it's to protect the people he's lying to. Think back to when Clark was honest to Lana in "Reckoning". Him telling the truth led to Lana having to carry his burden, and that burden caused Lex to ultimately kill her. In order to reverse her death, his father died instead. Unlike Lex, Clark doesn't get to choose his consequences.

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Lex researching how to repell the invasion strikes me as noble.

When you sub in "people" for invasion, it doesn't sound nearly so noble.

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When things go wrong, he takes personal responsibility at grave risk (the cloud of gas that poisoned people with their dreams? Lex takes a chance on the cure that may kill when he's not infected as a test subject).

And whose gas was that? LuthorCorp's. The messes Clark cleans up are generally not of his own doing.

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I'm just saying, looking at it only with the show, forgetting all the rest of the superman mythos.. I can far more understand and relate to the motivations of Lex then I can Clark.

That scares me

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Down to two episodes left in Season 5, and hell, I think the Lex/Lana thing is great. Clark all moans and whines about what Lana sees in Lex.. we get the close up of him holding the bullet in the hospital wing having saved Lana..

I thought the Lex/Lana thing was great too, but for very different reasons. He had 4-5 seasons of Lana bitching about Clark not being honest with her. I thought Lana ending up with Lex was a very just comeuppance. She'd better be ready to find out what being with a dishonest person is REALLY like. Clark saves her ass over and over again for five seasons, and all she can do is complain about him not being honest?

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Even if she knew about Clark's powers, his effort to "save" him would be minor in comparison because him throwing himself in front of a bullet for her would serve no consequences to him, whereas Lex doing it is him being willing to give his life for her. For all his faults, if I were Lana, even if I knew, I'd dump Clark.

Clark goes out of his way over and over again to save her life, even when he knows he won't get any credit. There are plenty of consequences beyond the physical, and Clark has suffered almost them all. He sacrificed his own father for her. Lana, if she knew, should be really fucking grateful in my book.

[Chris]

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It's Lex's certainty that he is right that makes me fear him. It's Clark's hesitancy and inner conflict that makes Clark the protagonist. Clark has a hell of a lot more on his plate than Lex, and has a hell of a lot less resources at his disposal to deal with it. Even when Clark makes the wrong decisions, it's generally for the right reasons. When Lex makes the right decision, it's almost always for selfish reasons.

Really? Lex (and Clark, if you believed the first four season) had an evil father (that has seemingly changed here in 6 for Clark..) and both had a major mess to clean up in the family line. But Clark wasn't on the same planet as his father, and didn't have to deal with that. Lex has to deal with meddlesome corporate cronies who continue to spin their own plans, escape with dangerous product.. plus Lex has to deal with corporate sabotage in the form of Clark.

And Clark's decisions to do the "wrong" thing don't always come out of the desire to do good, they come from the fact he has an innate ability that makes him an alien. I mean, yes, knowing the mythos, he's a "good guy" alien, but Lex and none of the others know that for sure.. and all they've seen from the Alien infestation (Meteor sick). And Clark's decision making has often been incredibly poor or directly resulted in high risk to friends/family and others.

More then that, Clark is a much larger global risk then Lex.. we know that when exposed to multiple forms of Kryptonite he's a virtual bomb waiting to go off..

My wife & I are watching the series together (1/2 through six now) and she's never seen any of the movies, read any of the books, etc. and her view influences me on this as well. But look at it through those kind of eyes. You're Lex, you see basically an alien invasion when you're very, very young.. and then, over the course of years, you watch "meteor freaks" as Chloe likes to put it, deal drugs, kill people, become robbers (and all those before this are just the high schoolers!), paid assassins (Chameleon), deranged psychopaths who teleport, terrorists and fanatics. Even Chloe started referring to it as an infection by season 5. So, if this is the most virulent, dangerous plague ever known to the world, wouldn't you try to stop it?

Clark really kind of lost me and hasn't got me back since he knowingly strapped on red kryptonite. As a storyline choice, that pretty well tainted that character and made it almost impossible to redeem him for me. Because it showed the key problem with his character: he can quickly be turned to evil with unstoppable powers.. so, even if he's good 99% of the time, it's that 1% when he isn't that risks the existance of everyone.. I mean, if I were depressed about maybe giving my dad a stroke and I went out and did tons of heroin and went out on a crime spree, I wouldn't be forgiven nearly as quickly as Clark.

And, I'd disagree with Lex making the right decision out of selfishness. When he took the test drug to see about curing those infected with the cloud gas, what was his ulterior motive? He could tested on anyone else, but he chose himself as the guinea pig. He takes a bullet for Lana in his house.. he could have just as easily not and let her die, no one would know and he would have not been a bad guy, they were both shot at. When in the hospital he elected to take a bullet for Lana, same thing. Going back in previous seasons, things like funding Lana, finding doctors for people.. I mean, I guess it made him look like a good guy, but it provided no other tangible benefit.

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But justice should be an impartial mechanism. If Aquaman is really as terrible as you say, Lex should have turned him over to the authorities instead of carrying out torture himself.
And what about level 33.1? Here's Lex's personal collection of various human beings held against their will without liberties for his own private interest and amusement.

See, now you're applying a standard I just can't buy. Lex knows that Aquaman is willing to kill people indiscriminatly for his cause... without debate. He also knows that exposure to water apparently gives him super powers which would help make him unstoppable. He knows that he's bent on destroying Lex's display and potentially people (and let's admit: before Clark showed up, Aquaman was planning on destruction, the life of those attending be damned). If Lex turns him over to the authorities, Lex has to know he'd get access to water along the way.. so, did Lex really torture him in any way OR did Lex basically save the lives of all those intending the display who Aquaman most assuredly attended to kill? And by helping Aquaman, how did Clark not assist an admitted attempted killer escape, destroy property and commit crimes against the government by destroying property built for the government? Yeah, I don't see that at all making Lex look bad, but it makes Clark look -really- bad.

As to 33.1, maybe I'm seeing this from a different perspective.. but Level 3 was Lionel's project, not Luther's. And Lionel used it to contaminate people, true (which is truly evil and Lionel IS evil despite some redemptive acts). Lex, however, has used 33.1 to study those "infected" and he's also used it to take the infected out of circulation. Lex is coming at this from a different viewpoint: that the infected are a plague, a dangerous, world-ending plague. And, in the first real introduction to 33.1, Lex used it to capture and contain mixltape (or whatever, that hungarian kid who could control people) by taking him out of circulation. Lex is coming at this from a different perspective.. these are people he believes the government could not contain, or worse, people he thinks the government would try to harness as warriors.. (see later as he dealt with James Marsters as the ship and told Lana he believed the government was using 'special people' to gain control over others).

Now, he may be wrong, but so far, the show hasn't given me any other reason to believe that his base idea (with what he knows) is wrong. I mean, we as a viewer know everything about characters, but Lex doesn't. Lex knows what he sees, and so far, what he has seen is a large swath of destruction by those infected with the meteor rocks or those who were infected by his father. Containment against them, even from use of the government, isn't necessarily an evil thing. He's seeing the world differently the Clark does.

Imagine if this was any other setting then Superman. Or that you'd never heard of superman.. an Alien invasion occurs and a group of people try to capture and contain a group in order to figure them out... then Lex seems a lot more like NTAC from 4400 then some evil mastermind. It's only our familiarity with past storylines that make us imply evil. But so far, those aren't really coming to advance here, and the good guys seem like the truly icky ones.

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When you sub in "people" for invasion, it doesn't sound nearly so noble.

But hasn't the show estabished that they aren't people anymore? Look at the number of times Lana, Chloe and others have been "infected" or taken over (even Lex by Zod) they wake up and say "I don't remember anything, I wasn't in control". Chloe referred to several as "body snatchers". And the show has made at least four or five episodes each season regarding people who get infected and are no longer who they were.. "she was a good kid and then...." type episodes. Lex doesn't see these as people anymore.. they are hosts. Hosts of a deadly, unknown alien infection.. and even the good guys buy into that because they also treat it as an infection. So are they people or are they just shells? I mean, if we want to say they were people, and they could control the infection, why isn't Lana in prison for a murder Lex buried? Or Clark for his crime spree? Or Chloe for her prom attempted killings? And so on.

And for that matter, while Lex contains them for study, so far all Clark has done is =kill= several of them because he acknowledges they weren't human anymore.. (examples: the kid who made people wax statues so they couldn't graduate and leave high school.. Clark fractured his body and blew him into pieces.. girl attacks Lana in Alley, Clark kills her). So, yes, Lex contains and researches them.. and treats them as non-humans. Clark recognizes them as non-humans and just kills them. Is it really preferable to just kill people?

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And whose gas was that? LuthorCorp's. The messes Clark cleans up are generally not of his own doing.

And Lex didn't clean up his father's here (they stated that the project was more then 5 years in.. which would be long before Lex took the reigns). Clark's mess is monumental. His existance on earth brought the meteor rocks, basically.. look at it as an attack by Krypton on Earth. Everyone on of the meteor freaks is his fathers mess.. so far, the body count is virtually unknowable. And Clark does his best to "clean it up" but it's still repercussions of how he came here. See, this is another issue.. in the comics and movies, he just "came here" without any real side effect.. in the show, there is a real yin/yang. Clark's existance brought with it incredible, super powered evil into the world. So Clark will spend the rest of his life trying to clean up his mess.. which so far has a much higher body count then anything we've seen from Lex. Again, this goes back to my: this is an alien invasion thought. Clark is an alien invasion. And yeah, he thinks he's a decent guy.. but all the crappy "friends" body snatchers, eco-contamination that he brought with him with the fake meteors is not so good.

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I thought the Lex/Lana thing was great too, but for very different reasons. He had 4-5 seasons of Lana bitching about Clark not being honest with her. I thought Lana ending up with Lex was a very just comeuppance. She'd better be ready to find out what being with a dishonest person is REALLY like. Clark saves her ass over and over again for five seasons, and all she can do is complain about him not being honest?

You really think that? That if Clark came out and said to Lana: "That meteor storm when we were a kid, that's how my parents sent me to earth.. and as a result your parents were killed when I came down, your five year old friend became a freak and a stalker who tried to kill you, you're body has been snatched infinite times, you watched a second shuttle come and try to kill me which almost killed you, and when you were told that the meteor rock would destroy evil.. yeah, it gets me too".

How could she see Clark as anything but the greatest plague she's ever known? Forget his good intentions.. Lex doesn't tell her everything, I suppose (dishonesty through the act of not revealing all) but her naive attitude that he should is at times laughable "I can't believe there are cameras in my room".. jeez, hell, I have cameras in every room of my house and I'm not some mega millionaire (then again, I'm watching a potentially self-endangering autistic child).

But Lex has a right to be worried about home invasion.. they've seen that enough.

Ok, we can say I'm terrible and wrong, but so far, if I was Lex, I'm not sure what broad different choices I would make if I were in his shoes with the access as he has. He believes (and the actor plays this incredibly convincingly) that he is the last real hope to stop an alien invasion and he'll do it at whatever cost.

Judging from what I see, I'm not that sure he's wrong. At this point, the only truly redemptive act for Clark is to sacrifice himself, leave earth or whatever. If he knows that at any moment he can be turned to evil by being made sick (Red) or a paranoid evil force (silver kryptonite). Then he knows that at any point he is the gravest danger to earth. And the only solution to that is to find every possible way to destroy all the earth contaminating meteor and leave.

[Adam Lenhardt]

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Originally Posted by Chris

And Clark's decisions to do the "wrong" thing don't always come out of the desire to do good, they come from the fact he has an innate ability that makes him an alien.

If Lionel Luthor's failings aren't Lex's fault, than certainly Clark's alien heritage can't be his fault.

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More then that, Clark is a much larger global risk then Lex.. we know that when exposed to multiple forms of Kryptonite he's a virtual bomb waiting to go off..

How common is Kryptonite outside of the greater Smallville area though? I think he's learned his lesson regarding red kryptonite (which, if you think about it, is his equivilant of pot, heroin or cocaine) which means in order for it to become an issue, he must be exposed via a human agent.

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and then, over the course of years, you watch "meteor freaks" as Chloe likes to put it, deal drugs, kill people, become robbers (and all those before this are just the high schoolers!), paid assassins (Chameleon), deranged psychopaths who teleport, terrorists and fanatics. Even Chloe started referring to it as an infection by season 5. So, if this is the most virulent, dangerous plague ever known to the world, wouldn't you try to stop it?

Most virulent, dangerous plague ever known? Are you serious? The bubonic plague killed millions, for one. West Nile Virus in a given year kills more than all the meteor freaks have combined during the length of the series. The meteor freaks aren't evil because they've been infected. They're powerful because they've been infected, and power corrupts. Clark isn't evil because he has largely been able to resist the temptations of power. Most of the meteor freaks weren't raised by Martha and Jonathan Kent. I would argue that, if they had been, they would have been one of the good ones.

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I mean, if I were depressed about maybe giving my dad a stroke and I went out and did tons of heroin and went out on a crime spree, I wouldn't be forgiven nearly as quickly as Clark.

On the contrary, many jurisdictions allow rehab as an alternative to jail time for first time offenders where the substance abuse can be linked to the cause of the other illegality. Clark's crimes were worse because Clark's abilities are greater. The 99% of the time accomplishes a great deal more good than the 1% of the time caused bad.

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And, I'd disagree with Lex making the right decision out of selfishness. When he took the test drug to see about curing those infected with the cloud gas, what was his ulterior motive? He could tested on anyone else, but he chose himself as the guinea pig.

Because he was guilty, not because he was altruistic.

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He takes a bullet for Lana in his house.. he could have just as easily not and let her die, no one would know and he would have not been a bad guy, they were both shot at. When in the hospital he elected to take a bullet for Lana, same thing. Going back in previous seasons, things like funding Lana, finding doctors for people.. I mean, I guess it made him look like a good guy, but it provided no other tangible benefit.

Unless you consider that Lex was at that time convinced of his own invincibility, and apparently had his eyes on Lana from the get go — backing off initially only to help the guy who saved his life.

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See, now you're applying a standard I just can't buy. Lex knows that Aquaman is willing to kill people indiscriminatly for his cause... without debate. He also knows that exposure to water apparently gives him super powers which would help make him unstoppable. He knows that he's bent on destroying Lex's display and potentially people (and let's admit: before Clark showed up, Aquaman was planning on destruction, the life of those attending be damned). If Lex turns him over to the authorities, Lex has to know he'd get access to water along the way.. so, did Lex really torture him in any way OR did Lex basically save the lives of all those intending the display who Aquaman most assuredly attended to kill?

How would Aquaman get access to water along the way? Tie him up tight, throw him in the back of one of his SUVs, bring him to the police station.

The imprisonment of a human being by a private citizen is unforgivable. Period.

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And by helping Aquaman, how did Clark not assist an admitted attempted killer escape, destroy property and commit crimes against the government by destroying property built for the government? Yeah, I don't see that at all making Lex look bad, but it makes Clark look -really- bad.

Look at it from this perspective:

Aquaman was going to destroy the weapon either way. Clark could either help and make sure no one was injured, or he could stand aside and watch as Aquaman destroyed property. You could argue that Clark should have taken him to the authorities, but since Lex wasn't about to either, you can't really hold that against Clark.

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Lex, however, has used 33.1 to study those "infected" and he's also used it to take the infected out of circulation. Lex is coming at this from a different viewpoint: that the infected are a plague, a dangerous, world-ending plague.

Based on what evidence? Their destructive influence has been pretty much entirely contained to a rural Kansas community. On that flimsy standard, he imprisons living, breathing, thinking, feeling human beings for his own ends an whims. This is evil.

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Lex is coming at this from a different perspective.. these are people he believes the government could not contain, or worse, people he thinks the government would try to harness as warriors.. (see later as he dealt with James Marsters as the ship and told Lana he believed the government was using 'special people' to gain control over others).

He can think whatever he wants, that doesn't make him special and above that law so that based on his mistaken assumptions he can do whatever the hell he wants.

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Or that you'd never heard of superman.. an Alien invasion occurs and a group of people try to capture and contain a group in order to figure them out... then Lex seems a lot more like NTAC from 4400 then some evil mastermind.

I would argue that the containment of the 4400 by NTAC didn't work out good for either party in that scenario. Even putting that aside, the key difference is that NTAC is a government agency authorized by elected representatives who derive their power from the citizenry of the United States. Lex Luthor is a private citizen responsible to no one acting on his rogue assumptions and whims.

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But hasn't the show estabished that they aren't people anymore? Look at the number of times Lana, Chloe and others have been "infected" or taken over (even Lex by Zod) they wake up and say "I don't remember anything, I wasn't in control". Chloe referred to several as "body snatchers". And the show has made at least four or five episodes each season regarding people who get infected and are no longer who they were.. "she was a good kid and then...." type episodes. Lex doesn't see these as people anymore.. they are hosts.