Action Sounds Too Loud, Dialog Too Soft

Ken45140 · 07-14-2007, 06:52 AM

First, being new, I have tried searching for this specific question and have not found anything to help--although there is obviously a lot of related material (does the Search facility allow boolean search operators--it does not seem to which makes it harder).

Anyway, new Onkyo HTS907 set up with six speakers along with new Samsung 52" LCD. Great visual experience but problems with the speaker calibration has made it less than fun.

I have to crank up the main volume in order to hear and understand the dialog sections, then crank the volume down for the very loud action sequences. This continues throughout movie and is no way to watch and enjoy said movie.

Here is what I have tried. If you can add or emphasize steps taken or which need to be taken, I would be very grateful.

I have set speaker levels "by ear", but am willing to get a SPL meter (but am not sure how this will help).

I have set Center speaker levels higher and sub levels lower (tried various level differences). One friend suggested centering levels around 0 rather than putting center way up to +9 with sub around +2 and surrounds at +6; sort of subtract a constant amount from all (like center at +2, sub at -5, surrounds at -1). I perhaps need a more systematic way to record settings and results but so far not much improvement.

I have tried taking the center out of the system (turned to off). This seemed to improve things slightly, but obviously the regular scenes lack something.

I have experimented with positioning (but not recording sound levels at different positions as suggested in another thread I found). Plus I still need to buy the SPL meter.

The fronts and center are located within a large cabinet but I have carefully positioned them as far forward as possible (not set deep within the cabinet).

Finally, I tried using the "Late Night" setting on the receiver and this helped the most. I understand it to reduce the highs and lows at a given volume setting, and it does do that. Some movies have not required the constant volume tweaking but others are not helped as much.

Maybe I am seeking something that is not obtainable, but the expertise here seems so high that surely there is a solution to this issue. Can anyone point me to a specific thread where this has already been discussed? Or can you offer me specific advice on how to improve this problem?

Thanks very much for any advice,
Ken

drobbins · 07-14-2007, 09:37 AM

Welcome to HTF

How is your speaker placement? Is the center at, or tilted, to ear level? When setting to ear, did you use a movie or "pink noise"? You would definitely benefit from a SPL meter. Pick your "sweet spot" and adjust all your levels the same. Then you can make some fine adjustments to suite your needs. I have my center +2 for the same reasons.

JohnRice · 07-14-2007, 09:39 AM

First, completely disregard your friends recommendation of going by the level values. They are for nothing other than reference to know what is set once the system is calibrated. Usually this problem is due to the system not being calibrated at all, but that doesn't seem to be the case here. There are many things which can cause this, such as hooking up one of the front speaker(probably the center) out of phase (getting the + and - reversed), so double check all the connections first.

It sounds most likely to be a combination of the system not being quite properly calibrated and just the fact that DVD movies, particualrly action ones, have very dynamic soundtracks. So, get an SPL meter and a calibration disc. Don't ever use the receiver's internal tones, if it has them. Do a "real world" calibration instead with a DVD and meter.

Then, if things are still too dynamic, use the Midnight mode or reduce the dynamic range of DD soundtracks on the receiver. They usually have that feature in the setup menu somewhere. Just be aware that neither of these limiters typically work with DTS soundtracks.

Don T · 07-14-2007, 09:52 AM

Hello Ken,

Welcome to the forum. I can tell you that I have had a few receivers and recently upgraded speakers. With all of them I have calibrated with either Digital Video Essentials or Avia.

Obviously, after calibrating, I obtained better integration of sound. And it is fantastic sound at this point (Thank you SVS).

You mentioned that it only happens on certain Movies. I experience this too. Sometimes it is like the director wants you to really notice the action sequences, so you adjust the movie for those and then it is a challenge to hear the quieter passages such as the dialog. I truly believe it is how the director envisioned it for a large theater, however, my theater room is not huge, so it is very overwhelming. I usually pick a good listening spot and make a median choice on the levels and am pretty happy.

I hope you enjoy the forum as there is a ton of great information here. Check out the home theater picture section. I always love looking at that and getting envious!

Thank you,
Don

Ken45140 · 07-14-2007, 11:37 AM

Thanks for the warm welcome...this seems like a very friendly place to hang out and learn things.

Please take a moment and explain a little more on how to use the SPL meter and why it will help.

Here is what I understand...I pick a sound level out of one of the fronts and read the meter and record. Do this all the way around. The readings will be different. Then go to the calibration menu and increase or decrease that channel so the reading is some arbitrary value. Then do this again on each channel until all read the same on the meter. Is this a correct interpretation on how to use the meter?

If yes, I do not see how this helps my problem. The soft passages will be soft and I will crank up the master volume to hear and understand them. The sounds from all the speakers will be "balanced" at this new level. Then a loud passage comes along and all speakers are balanced yet I am overwhelmed by the sheer volume of the loud passges, even though they are all "even". Again, I do not see how the meter helps me. Please say just a few more words.

It seems I want the voice frequencies to be accentuated (louder) and the action frequencies (lower) to be diminished. I just reread the equalizer section in the receiver manual. Would this be something that might help? (I realize that there are a range of frequencies in the loud passages, but the majority may be - should be - lower.)

I will buy the meter (cost small percentage of the total cost I have put into the HT system) but I just want to know there is a technical rational why this will help.

Finally, I have read countless user reviews about the AVIA and Video Essentials calibration discs (and even a few others). The reviews said both disks are .... "worthless", "not worth the money", "full of non-user-friendly features"---IOW, the majority were negative, and thus I have held back. The AVIA was made in 1999, I believe, before home theater was even off the ground. Yikes. You guys sound like these are still good enough to get in spite of their supposed limitations. I will get one but would love to hear something positive above and beyond the negatives.

Thanks for any additional comments and help.

PS: the front/center speakers are placed accurately, ear level, center tilted slightly. Surrounds are stand mounted at proper angles from the listening position. I just checked and the wires are hooked correctly (I had the vendor install the system and it looks like it was done correctly based on my limited experience base.)

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Ed Moxley · 07-14-2007, 12:45 PM

To calibrate your speakers, it's best if you have the SPL setup at ear level, in the sweet spot. I use a tripod in my seat, and adjust the height to ear level. I've always heard to point the SPL meter's mic upward. It worked well for me.
Set the speaker level (volume), for each speaker, to the same volume, according to the SPL meter. Once they are all at the same volume, your problem should be taken care of. Some folks run the volume of the center channel, a little hotter (louder), just to make sure they can hear lower speaking voices.

Anytime you rearrange the furniture, and move your speakers, you'll need to recalibrate. That's why it's good to have an SPL meter. Let's say that your left rear speaker is 2 ft. away from your seat, and your right rear speaker is 6 ft. away. The level of the right rear speaker will be set louder, than the left rear, just to be the same volume at the listening position. Examples like this can be very hard to set "by ear".

You also need to set the distances (delay) of each speaker, from the sweet spot. It will make a difference, when bullets should be whizzing by your head, during "Saving Private Ryan".

Quote:

The reviews said both disks are .... "worthless", "not worth the money"

Whoever said that has no clue! Avia is very helpful, and you don't have to be a rocket scientist to use it. Sound and Vision's Tune Up disc, is also a good one. I've never used Digital Video Essentials, personally, but have never heard anyone say anything but good things about it. You can get Avia and DVE at Amazon.com.
Hope this helped. Good luck!

Oh yeah.........
As John said, make sure your speakers are in phase. The speaker wire that is in the + side of the speaker connection, should also be in the + side of the receiver connection. Shouldn't be hard to do. Some speaker wires have a silver wire side and a gold wire side. Some have a thin white or red line running down one side. Some have a small raised ridge down one side, once you spit the ends of the wire. It doesn't matter which one goes where, as long as you're consistant.

drobbins · 07-14-2007, 12:58 PM

Quote:

If yes, I do not see how this helps my problem. The soft passages will be soft and I will up the master volume to hear and understand them.

Calibrating will give you a baseline and have your system set up to reproduce the sound the way it was intended. I use the Avia disc and found it just fine. Once you have this baseline then you can adjust the center up 1 or 2. the center is where most of the dialogue will come from.
I noticed that your center has two 3 1/8 dia woofers and a tweeter. My original system had two 3" woofers and a tweeter in my JBL center. I too had the same troubles you describe with "unbalanced" volume. I upgraded the center and now have two 5 woofers 3 inch midrange and a tweeter. This helped greatly.
The other thing I might look into is the room acoustics. When you clap you hands, do you hear any echo or reverb? If so, you might be turning up the volume to hear it over all the old sound waves bouncing around.

JohnRice · 07-14-2007, 02:04 PM

Ken, you are being polite, but then you completely disregard the suggestions you are given. I also am baffled how you found "all" reviews of the DVE and AVIA discs to say the are worthless. Also, 1999 is hardly "before home theater was even off the ground", since I have had a full HT since the late 80s and a DVD player since 1997. The basic principles of how to calibrate an HT haven't changed since the introduction of DVD and home 5.1 surround.

The reason you need to calibrate your system is this. Dialog come almost entirely from the center channel. The majority of other sounds come from the left & right. Ambient sounds, which includes a lot of sound effect, reverberations of explosions, etc, come from the surrounds. Now, let's say your center speaker is set too low, then to hear dialog you'll have to crank up the volume. Then, when explosions hit, since you have turned up the volume to compensate for the too low center, the L&R will overpower everything else, and so on.

As far as using the calibration discs and meter, there is nothing "arbitrary" about it. You set the system to clearly defined levels, then fine tune it if you want, such as making the center a little higher, if you prefer that. I can guarantee that "doing it by ear" won't necessarily get you that close.

Also, you don't mention what your speakers are. If they are not remotely matched, that could very well be the main part of your problem and no amount ob level calibration will do you all that much good.