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[ Let's REALLY Understand HT Crossovers ]

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Old 04-11-2007, 09:37 PM   #1 of 51
JohnRice
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Let's REALLY Understand HT Crossovers


I'm starting this thread because I see so much lack of understanding and misinformation on how crossovers, subs, mains and surrounds actually interact. I don't pretend to know all of it, but I know there are a few others here who can accurately fill in some of the holes. Beyond that, there is a lot of grey area, because manufacturers don't always provide all the specs on how their crossovers work.

I will provide what I can and ask some others to fill in some of the blanks. I am hoping members will refrain from adding speculation or things they think are correct, because to paraphrase Mark Twain, "so much of what we know simply ain't true."

My point for this thread is really just HT crossovers set in the receiver or processor between the speakers and sub, because this is such an enormous and intricate subject, taking on more will just make if too big a topic.

Crossovers are not a brick wall...
It is common to think the crossover setting is a sharp change from the speaker to the sub. As though if you set it to 80Hz, then anything 80Hz and above is sent only to the mains and anything 79Hz and below only to the sub. The truth is, there is a rolloff. Typically, the crossover frequency is where both the speaker and sub are at -3dB, because, in theory, if you have two sources running at -3dB, it is the same volume as 1 at 0dB.

You have a low pass filter, which filters out the higher frequencies and passes the low ones to the sub. The rate at which this rolls off is usually pretty steep, 24dB/octave for example, because sub drivers are typically not intended to reproduce frequencies into even low midrange. You also have a high pass filter, which filters out the low frequencies and passes the higher ones to the speakers. This one has a more gradual rolloff, 6dB per octave for example. Now, listen to something at a given volume, then reduce it by 6dB and you'll see that isn't much of a change. To know what one octave is, either half or double the Hz.

So, it you set your crossover to 80Hz, in this example, it only drops 6dB at 40 Hz. People are constantly confused why I keep telling them not to set the crossover at the minimum usable frequency of their mains, and this is why. If you do that, the crossover not only doesn't have the chance to work right, you put more of a strain on your speakers than you need to. Plus, if you have invested substantial money in a good sub, you are not taking full advantage of it. More on that later though.

There are more reasons to not drop the crossover to the minimum. By relieving the mains the strain of going to their low extreme, you not only reileve your amp of the significant burdon low frequencies cause, but the speakers as well. This can give noticeable improvements to the entire system. So, you say you have large full-range floorstanding speakers and tons of power and they shouldn't be limited that way? Read on.

My "Large" horror story...

My mains are very capable, solidly built Thiel CS 3.6. You can see they are rated flat, within 1.5 dB down to 29 Hz. Depending on what rating you accept, (I have seen them rated from 4 ohm to 3 ohm) my Aragon 4004II amp delivers between 400 and 600 wpc to them. So, power is not really an issue. When I first bought them, there was no home 5.1. At first, I had a Velodyne sub with its own external amp and crossover. The main channels were run through the amp, which split off the sub signal, then on to the Aragon for the Thiels. This is how I first ran my 5.1 system, which wasn't true 5.1, since I had to set the sub to "Off" and the mains to "Large" the get the LFE and other bass to the sub.

Then I got a sub designed for 5.1 use. I set the sub to "On" and without even thinking about it, left the mains to "Large". After all, with those speakers and all that power, I'd have to be an idiot to set them to "Small". The very idea was absurd.

I got it all tuned in and listened to music, which sounded great. Then some movies. Also great. Then one night, while I was cranking out an action flick at reference level I discovered what happens when you apply that much clean power and infrasonic signal to any speaker. It was the sound of the woofer voice coils slamming into the end of their travel with a blood curdling "Chunk!!". I sat in horror for a minute while I thought about what had happened. It was obvious. Presented with those kinds of demands, the mains had to be set to "Small" if they were going to live and I was going to use the system to its full potential. The chunk never happened again and the system has never lacked for bass. At first I though the 80Hz minimum setting on my processor was too high, but I've never thought about it again, after just letting the system do its thing and not dwelling on it.

Of course, the slope rates I give are not the same for every system. Unfortunately, receiver and processor manufacturers don't seem to like to give up what the slopes actually are. Plus, some allow different settings for each speaker, which is good. Just don't set it too low.

This is just scratching the surface and I hope some of the truly knowlegable members will add to it.





They flutter behind you, your possible pasts.
Some bright-eyed and crazy, some frightened and lost.

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Old 04-11-2007, 11:46 PM   #2 of 51
RickiRed
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Re: Let's REALLY Understand HT Crossovers


Quote:
Originally Posted by John Garcia
Your center may be your limiting factor there, because with the RF-3s, you should be able to handle a 60Hz x-over. I'd try it out and see how the center handles it; it may be a bit too much bass for it to handle. 80Hz should be OK for your setup though.

You are not completely removing sound below 80Hz, but rather decreasing it as you go beyond 80Hz and the opposite occurs for the sub - though the low pass is generally steeper than for the mains (~12db/octave for mains, 18-24 for the sub). That means your mains will still be getting down to at least 40Hz, just at a much reduced level and with a 60Hz, you can expect some output down to 30Hz. Like I said, try it out and see if you like it and if it strains; if it does, put it back to 80Hz

I got started in car audio as well

Gotcha! I only used 60 because I wasn't sure what the selectable points were. I actually have the center set as small so it has been working well. But now that I am here at home in front of the TV and have my manual with me I know now that it is 80, 100, and 120. I have the the mains set at 80Hz in the receiver. On the back of the KSW12 I have the lowpass crossover set at around 70. I did this because I wanted to allow the fronts to begin thier roll off before the sub kicks in. I also didn't want there to be too much overlap with the sub and fronts. Is this not right and what would be your suggestions. Please forgive me for confusing everyone earlier but I do understand that the crossover doesn't actually "cutoff" the freq. below the x-over point you select but as John R. puts it, it rolls it off.

John G. I am going to play with large and small settings and see what comes of it, thanks for the input.

John R.

Looking at the manual for my receiver it says:

-Crossover Frequency-
When "Subwoofer" is set to "yes" at the "Speaker Configuration Setting" set the frequency (hz) belowwhich the bass sound of the various speakers is to be output from the subwoofer (the crossover frequency)
For speakers set to "small", sound with a frequency below the crossover frequency is cut, and the cut bass sound is output from the subwoofer instead.
NOTE:For ordinary speaker systems we recommend setting the crossover frequency to 80Hz. When using small speakers, however, setting the crossover frequency to a high frequency may improve frequency responce for frequencies near the crossover frequency.

-Subwoofer mode-
The subwoofer mode setting is only valid when "LARGE" is set for the front speakers and "YES" is set for the subwoofer in the "Speaker Config." settings
When the "LFE+Main" mode is selected, the low frequency signal range of the channels set at "LARGE" are produced simultaneously from those channels and the subwoofer channel.


With all the info and manuals I have for the RF3's and my Denon I don't have the cutoff slope for the built in crossovers in the denon nor the RF3's so that is one area that I am just working blind. Klipsch does give a freq response of 37Hz-20kHz±3dB but that is not doing me much good if I am not sure how steep the cut off is.

John R. you make very good points about the brick wall and I by no means think that. I think my problem earlier was that I was being far to general when a more detailed answer was needed. However it is still good to know that I am not too far off on my thinking after very good posts by the both of you.

OH yeah you have some very nice equipment.



Monitor - Panasonic 42PX60U
Source - Sony DVP-CX860 300+1 DVD/XBox360 HD-DVD
Receiver - Denon 3802
Fronts - Klipsch Reference RF-3 Towers
Center - Klipsch Reference RC-3
Rear - Klipsch Reference RF-3 Towers
Sub - Klipsch Reference RSW12
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Old 04-11-2007, 11:51 PM   #3 of 51
MaxL
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Re: Let's REALLY Understand HT Crossovers


some reading on the subject, where i find answers to my questions and yours:

receiver speaker crossover article

another one

on the LFE or .1

on speaker crossover theory

a nice, basic glossary



HT: Marantz SR8000, PSB Alpha B fronts, Alpha C center, CSW New Ensemble surrounds, Martin Logan Dynamo Sub, Philips DVD, Sony CRT TV

Stereos include vintage Sony receivers/amps into vintage AR and KEF speakers.
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Old 04-11-2007, 11:59 PM   #4 of 51
MikeNg
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Re: Let's REALLY Understand HT Crossovers


Thanks for broaching the topic Mr. Rice. The can of worms has been opened.

Here's a good summation of crossover networks, with a fairly technical breakdown of various approaches.
http://www.rane.com/note147.html


Another good discussion on why one wants to set their speaker to 'small', even if the thing is 'large'.
http://www.audioholics.com/tweaks/ge...s%20to%20small
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Old 04-12-2007, 12:03 AM   #5 of 51
RickiRed
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Re: Let's REALLY Understand HT Crossovers




Slow down guys I can only take in so much this late at night but all the info is great keep it coming and I can't wait for more discussion



Monitor - Panasonic 42PX60U
Source - Sony DVP-CX860 300+1 DVD/XBox360 HD-DVD
Receiver - Denon 3802
Fronts - Klipsch Reference RF-3 Towers
Center - Klipsch Reference RC-3
Rear - Klipsch Reference RF-3 Towers
Sub - Klipsch Reference RSW12
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Old 04-12-2007, 04:07 AM   #6 of 51
JohnRice
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Re: Let's REALLY Understand HT Crossovers


Rick, I will point out one thing to change with what you are doing. Your receiver has a crossover (low pass filter, set at 80Hz?) on the sub output. You also are using the crossover on the sub, set to 70Hz, if I read you right. You should never use both crossovers, as this is what is referred to as cascading crossovers, and can cause all sorts of problems. In this situation, the crossover on the sub should always be bypassed, or if it has no bypass, it should be set to its highest setting, to avoid the two crossovers "running" into each other.

Also, if the mains are set to "large" they don't ever roll off. Any speaker set to "large" bypasses any crossover frequency you have set. Look at the second article MikeNg linked to.





They flutter behind you, your possible pasts.
Some bright-eyed and crazy, some frightened and lost.


Last edited by JohnRice : 04-12-2007 at 04:20 AM.
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Old 04-12-2007, 05:38 AM   #7 of 51
SHS
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Re: Let's REALLY Understand HT Crossovers


Nice thread John, thanks. Now, if you could just write s'thn like this for tax law!!
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Old 04-12-2007, 09:35 AM   #8 of 51
Wayne A. Pflughaupt
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Re: Let's REALLY Understand HT Crossovers



Good write-up, John. I had that same sickening experience (the speakers bottoming out during an action flick). My speakers were good to about 28 Hz, so I set my crossover for 60 Hz, thinking that having it an octave above their maximum extension would be safe enough. Wrong. And my external crossover has 24 dB/octave slopes on both sides! IOW, at 30 Hz the bass signal in my mains should have been attenuated by 24 dB.

What people fail to consider is that the signal content of some movies, especially action flicks. The extreme amount of boost at the lowest frequencies can effectively flatten a high-pass filter, or at the very least reduce the slope considerably. The crossover should be able to protect your speakers, even if the slope is significantly diminished, but consider the consequences of not having the crossover on-line. Without its low frequency attenuation, you end up with the same effect as adding a 15-20 dB boost at 25 Hz with an equalizer. No one in his right mind would do that intentionally, but your DVD is effectively doing the same thing.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt



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