surround speakers

SHS · 04-07-2007, 10:42 AM

This thread is primarily about HT sound and the ability of certain designs to meet listening and room needs.

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My status:
I bought the JBL Venue Stage (front floor) and Voice(center) speakers and so far I am pleased with the sound. My listening is 90%+ HT.

I am in the process of deciding what to add with them for surround sound speakers. Right now I'm using an old set of Advents for the rears. I have to admit they sound pretty good but the sound in localizable, I guess in some tracks that is the desired effect.

I know I have not invested a huge amount of money into these so far and for my budget it is pleasing me with the sound. I am sure I will want to upgrade the whole system in a few years.

I have a Denon capable of 5.1/6.1/7.1.

My room config attached for reference.

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My question:

I want to have a 6.1 system!

There a many possibilities on the next addition.
1) I could add identical towers for the sides and rears and there would be no chance of timbre mismatching. ~$500
2) I could add Venue series bookshelves and speakers stands at about the same cost and ~ same floorspace. ~$450-$500
3) I could add the Venue series surround speakers that have a 4" driver and a tweeter and a little different sound dispersion pattern and not really positive the timbre matching would be accurate. However I could wall mount them higher(more ideal for HT) and take up zero floorspace. Floorspace is not really an issue though. ~$250

Will I notice some frequency/timbre mismatches between the wall mounted surrounds and the floor speakers? Are the sound dispersement patterns a consideration worth worrying about between the floor/bookshelf/surround speakers?

JohnRice · 04-07-2007, 11:15 AM

Hello again Scott. I will endeavor to choose my words carefully.

I would try to find a surround speaker which is switchable between dipole and bipole and put two of them more or less directly to the left and right of the listening area, mounted high, and then if you want 6.1, a third in the middle of the back wall, and set them all for bipole (out of phase) playback.

You may want to experiment with the speaker setting, which is why I recommend the switcheable bipole/dipole models. Dipole will help make them less localized, and is often what people prefer for side surrounds and a single rear surround.

BTW, perferc timbre matching is not as important for surrounds, but having switcheable modes and having them up high is. Floor mounted surround will not give a good surround effect.

MaxL · 04-07-2007, 11:42 AM

the trick of movie sound is to help create the immersive illusion of cinema by putting yourself in the middle of a real sound environment. a room will bounce sound off its walls so the sound will always surround you but our brain ear combo is very good at decoding those room acoustics and localizing sounds. so we got stereo, and when set up properly, we can get a clear sound stage from left to right. but from two drivers it is very difficult to make a sound appear to come from behind you. so we add drivers (speakers) to the back of the listening room so that we can more easily fool our brains into believing a given recorded sound is originating there. the sound we hear is coming from behind us. the trick is to have a room set up so that the surround sounds don't all sound like they're coming from the speakers but from that general direction. just like we don't want to locate the sub audibly, if we every sound from back left sounds like it's coming right out of that speaker, it blows the illusion. so we have a few options to help hide the location without loosing it completely. one is to not put that speaker pointing straight at your ear. another is to get a di/bi pole speaker so that the sounds are reflected to your ear instead of sent straight there (amazingly, the brain still decodes the general location of the sound's origin).

idealy, there is some distance between your seating and the back wall. but reality is not ideal in my room either. i have my surrounds on the floor pointing straight up at the back corners of my couch where it meets the wall. far from ideal, but the best i've come up with so far.

as far as timbre matching, again, better if it does but much less important than the front 3 speakers. that is mainly due to the surround content. if there were lots of scenes where a spoken voice was supposed to do a 360 around your head, timbre matching your rears would be a lot more important. also if you listen to lots of multi-channel music it's more likely to be an issue.

assuming that money is an issue at all, this is the best place in a system to skimp IMO. you absolutely do not need towers for surround, they actually have some real potential downsides, mainly placement.

hope this made sense, i'm a bit rushed.

SHS · 04-07-2007, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnRice

Hello again Scott. I will endeavor to choose my words carefully.

I would try to find a surround speaker which is switchable between dipole and bipole and put two of them more or less directly to the left and right of the listening area, mounted high, and then if you want 6.1, a third in the middle of the back wall, and set them all for bipole (out of phase) playback.

You may want to experiment with the speaker setting, which is why I recommend the switcheable bipole/dipole models. Dipole will help make them less localized, and is often what people prefer for side surrounds and a single rear surround.

BTW, perferc timbre matching is not as important for surrounds, but having switcheable modes and having them up high is. Floor mounted surround will not give a good surround effect.

Hey John & Max,
I guess I misspoke....I meant I want a 7.1 system. There is really nowhere to mount a center rear in the room due to a large window. BTW John, I know you mean it tongue in cheek but I do want to apologize for snapping, many reasons(personal) for that on that day. However I do see that some of the members have some comments that make you shake your head. I guess I might be one as well....oh well!!

That makes sense with the switchable dipole/bipole and what I would like to do then is go ahead and research a set to begin with, buy them and then another matched set later. It also makes sense about the towers and the fact that I'd have placement issues as well as they are not ideal for surround sound.

I will search all the online companies that have been linked recently but I am open to suggestions, if anyone has experience with a specific brand/model I will take that into consideration.

I would like to keep them in the ~$200-$400 per set range.

Max I tried to put my rear bookshelves on the floor pointed up as well and it was not ideal. They are now on the tables at a ~45deg angle toward the listening area and it is ok, not great. Actually for music they sound great, as supported in a recent link you gave me that had information about speaker placement. But, seating is too close to the speakers in my opinion, if I turn them down then the sound suffers and if they are at proper levels the sound is right in your ear. Either way I can see I need to improve this situation.

JohnRice · 04-07-2007, 12:43 PM

Scott, just to add a bit, since you corrected the comment about wanting 6.1. There are two main ways I see you can go. I would strongly recommend the switcheable models for the side surrounds. Most people seem to prefer dipole for the sides, but it is nice to have the option to switch them. If you have room behind the listening area, then I would do the same for the rears, except with them, you may find you prefer the bipole setting. If you DO NOT have room behind the listening area, you might consider a direct radiating speaker which is voice matched to the dipoles and mounting them to the rear wall, but with the option of aiming them up or directly forward. The important thing it to try to have some options with how you can install what you buy. Too many people think they can speculate on what they will like best before they actually try it out. I personally just don't like easily localized surrounds.

You mentioned your surrounds being too close. It is always beneficial to have sufficient space between you and the surrounds. Unfortunately, that is usually not possible. So, sometimes you bounce them off the ceiling or something else. Just keep them high. Low surrounds never sound best. Of course, someone will tell me their floor standing surrounds are perfect, but to each his own. As far as I'm concerned, high is always better for surrounds. Ambient sounds virtually never come from the floor.

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SHS · 04-07-2007, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnRice

Scott, just to add a bit, since you corrected the comment about wanting 6.1. There are two main ways I see you can go. I would strongly recommend the switcheable models for the side surrounds. Most people seem to prefer dipole for the sides, but it is nice to have the option to switch them. If you have room behind the listening area, then I would do the same for the rears, except with them, you may find you prefer the bipole setting.

John you know I am new to some of this terminology so help me understand how a dipole and a bipole speaker could be designed. I thought a bipole radiated front and rear so it would have to be away from the wall, I guess they could be side mounted....dunno. A dipole, in a surround instance, would mount on the wall and have drivers either side producing out of phase sound.
Don't bipole and dipole speakers both produce out of phase?

I did a quick look at some of the online offerings and did not see a switchable speaker, do you have an example?

I'm off to reading more about the design I guess.

EDIT1:copied from online source
Direct (monopole) speakers have the speaker cones facing out into the room. They're the most common type of speaker.
Bipole speakers have at least two cones, one facing the room, and one facing backwards, so half the sound is direct, and half reflects off the wall.
Dipole speakers come in two forms: (1) Similar physically to bipoles, but with the speakers out-of-phase, so when the front cone is moving out, the rear cone is moving in, and (2) with both speakers almost in front, but pointed 90° off from each other, so if the speaker is mounted on the wall, the speakers are aimed along the wall.......

but I did see some switchable speakers while searching so back to surfing...LOL!

EDIT2: Since I'm having this conversation with myself, I will continue.

http://www.smr-home-theatre.org/Type...ker-Types.html

This explained it to me rather well and I guess the switching would put the speaker either in or out of phase......which is now rather apparent.

Hmmmm, now to find "affordable" switchable surrounds......surfing again!!!

SHS · 04-07-2007, 05:47 PM

I have spent about 5 hrs now researching different surround sound speakers online and I can say I have a better understanding but still undecided.

I found several that have the ability to be switched dipole/bipole and in the price ranges from ~$300-$700 a pair. Now to decide which set to choose.

I would appreciate any input of those that have experience with switchable dipole/bipole speakers in that price range.

JohnRice · 04-07-2007, 07:26 PM

Scott, that link you posted is a good source of info, but it is basically talking about L/R speakers. With surround bi/dipoles, you ideally don't "bounce" one side off a wall. With them, if the drivers are mounted on opposite sides, they aim out along thhe wall, with no drivers pointed toward the listener. With the angled ones, you hang them on a wall with the listener essentially in the space between the drivers. The purpose of dipoles is they radiate essentially no sound directly from their location, but it starts appearing as it moves away from the speaker.

The ones I have are Polk with drivers on opposite sides of the speaker. My listening position is about 11 ft from the front and 6 ft from the back with the Polks directly to the side about 10 ft to each side.