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02-10-2007, 05:40 PM
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#2 of 6 
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Member
Location: Charlotte, NC
Join Date: Dec 2003
Local Time: 10:28 AM
Local Date: 08-30-2008
Posts: 2,539
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Re: Dual 20-39+ or a single PB-12+2
I certainly don't want to throw another kink into your plans, but have you considered comparing the 20-39's and the PB12-Ultra/2? There is only a $100 price difference there instead of a $500 difference.
Back to your current comparison . . . "a bit more powerful" would mostly be due to the larger internal volume (and ability to move air) in the two cabinets instead of one. Could you provide a little more information? For instance, if you get two subs, do you plan to co-locate them or place them in different spots? If you co-locate then you will likely have a small performance (SPL) advantage over the Plus/2. If you do not co-locate them and you're willing to work hard on the calibration then you could improve the response to create a larger sweet-spot within the room.
Also, let us know the dimensions of your room.
Bottom-line (IMO) -- if you plan to co-locate I don't think you're getting much return for your $500. If you're going to separate them and calibrate appropriately to get a great response curve then perhaps it's money well spent.
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02-10-2007, 09:56 PM
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#3 of 6
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Derek
Member
Join Date: Mar 1999
Local Time: 08:28 AM
Local Date: 08-30-2008
Posts: 785
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Re: Dual 20-39+ or a single PB-12+2
Brad,
Here are some snippits from the email conversation I had with Ron when I decided on duals. I know our situations are different (room size, preferred listeing levels, etc), but I hope it will help somewhat. In your unique case, however, contacting Ron or Tom directly with the specifics of your room is always the best way to go... Of course, you are already consulting with one of the best, Ed Mullen (who has forgotton more that I could ever hope to know about this stuff...)
RON STIMPSON:
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The dual colocated PC+ will have even more bang than a PB12-Plus/2 in the 20 Hz, and if you tune them to 16 Hz (with dual 3" ports still open), the disparity will grow even more.
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ME:
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After looking at my available options again, there are two places I can put a second PC-Plus: Fist, I could put it right next to the other (on the same side of the room - refer to floor plan), or I could put it on the opposite wall (but it would not be corner loaded - the other one is - sort of/kinda/use your imagination). What sort of problems could this cause?
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RON STIMPSON:
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Colocation is obviously the more desireable of the two. Separated subs can cause a very uneven FR unless you really know what you are doing and can match the phase response curves of the two subs. Even then the room will conspire against you because each sub will interface with and load the room differently and each sub will create its own unique set of room modes. I definitely recommend colocation when using duals; all of the above problems are eliminated and you get the full 6 dB of headroom increase (which you almost assuredly will NOT get if they are separated).
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RON STIMPSON:
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A PB12-Plus/2 in the 20 Hz tune would be almost as powerful as dual 20-39PC+ but not quite. Even though it has dual woofers and basically 2X the power, it doesn't have the enclosure volume or the port area of the dual cylinders, both of which effect efficiency at the deepest frequencies. Expect anywhere from 4-5 dB more headroom/output (frequency dependent) from the PB12-Plus/2 in the 20 Hz tune over a single PC+, which is a 60-80% increase in output. It will be a very noticeable increase in power, output, and headroom over a single PC+.
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This I interpret to mean that duals would have a 20-40% advantage over a single Plus/2 (in 20Hz tune). Also note the bit about the advantage at the deepest frequencies. Dual 20-39 Plus cylinders would have 6 ports free, whereas a single Plus/2 (in 20Hz tune) would only have 2 ...
Ron, Tom or Ed,
Could you chime in if I am all wet here?
Peace... Derek
One sub to rumble them all. One sub to shake them. One sub to humble them all. And in the darkness break them.
Louvre attendant: Sacre bleu! ze frame on ze Mona Lisa broke and ze only one left iz too small. Andre, bring me ze scissors!
Last edited by Vader : 02-11-2007 at 04:33 PM.
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02-10-2007, 09:57 PM
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#4 of 6
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Join Date: Jul 1999
Local Time: 02:28 PM
Local Date: 08-30-2008
Posts: 3,320
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Re: Dual 20-39+ or a single PB-12+2
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Originally Posted by bgilly
Ed mullen and I have exchanged about 20emails and had a great 40min phone conversation. His information is very knowledgeable and I can really tell he is looking out for my best interest!!!
I'm making a trip to Girard on Tuesday Morning to pick out my new sub.
I read on here where Tom V. said...
"Even though the dual PC+ subs would be a bit more powerful…you’ll save about $500 going with the Plus/2"
---When I read this it got me thinking........what does "a bit more powerful" mean????
I'll make a long story short for you...
I'm getting 1 sub now and 1 sub in about 6months.
I'm looking at the 20-39+ and the 16-46+
I love deep deep infrasonic bass which is why ED is steering me towards the 16-46+, but I want to see how the 20-39+ performs to my ears with scenes that my current pb-12nsd just couldn't do (so i'm going bigger and better).
If I like the 20-39+ better and I'd eventually get duals of them....would I REALLY be better off getting a PB-12+2 instead of dual 20-39+ and thus saving about $500 like Tom V. said.
I know that if I prefer the performance and sound of the 16-46+ that a dual set up of those would be way better than the pb-12+2 (according to everything Ed has told me, which is basically Dual 16-46+ will really really be better than a pb-12+2 tuned to 16hz with only 2 ports open). (Makes sense to me!
I won't know which sub I'm buying until Tuesday.......BUT if I decide go with the 20-39+....I want to know if I'm REALLY better off going with the pb12+2 now Rather than going with a single 20-39+ now and a 2nd in 6months...
I hope this is not confusing but when i read that Dual PC+'s were a bit more powerful, I just couldn't help but wonder if a bit more powerful is worth $400-500 more !
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Hi Brad
I would go with the Dual 16-46+. |
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02-11-2007, 05:01 PM
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#6 of 6
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brad
Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Local Time: 10:28 AM
Local Date: 08-30-2008
Posts: 12
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Re: Dual 20-39+ or a single PB-12+2
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Originally Posted by Edward J M
The two options have similar output capabilities above ~30 Hz. Below 30 Hz, the dual cylinders start to show an advantage and this stretches to 4-5 dB (60-80% more acoustic output) in the 18-22 Hz bandwidth, which is significant.
When people discuss a 40% increase in cost when going from the Plus/2 to the dual 20-39PC+, this is certainly justified (on a percentage basis) by the performance gains below 30 Hz.
The dual 16-46PC+ would (for the same reasons cited above) have more than 2X the output capability of a Plus/2 (16 Hz tune) below ~20 Hz, and again this justifies the price increase for those customers specifically looking for maximum clean output capability in the 13-18 Hz region.
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40% increase in cost for 60-80% more output........seems worth the extra.
I don't think many people realize how much more 2x output capability really is....or 60-80% more output. I can understand that and it makes sense....you get what you pay for 
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