tony^v

To sub or not to sub?

I just hook up my new Onkyo 602 with my old speakers(tower JBL in front and book shelfs design acoustics for center and rears).
The new receiver really pushes my towers. I hear bass that my old pioneer receiver could not produce. I played a few movies (star wars, T2, etc.)and it sounds real good.I also played music as well and it sounded good.
My question is:
1)Do I need a sub?
2)How much of a difference will it make If I get a sub?

Right now my setup is 2 fronts 2 rears and 1 center so its not 5.1 but still sounds pretty good.

PS I might change the fronts to book shelfs next year so I'm sure I will need a sub then but what about now?

Jeff Gatie

It depends on the capabilities of your mains, but there are very few mains that can reach the depths that a dedicated sub can reach. If it "sounds good" to you, then you can probably get away with no sub. Just don't listen to a system that has a quality sub and you will not know what you are missing.



If you purchase a quality sub that has flat frequency response down to 25Hz or below, it will make a HUGE difference. Much of the LFE in todays DVD's is below the capabilities of your main speakers. That is why "5.1 surround" includes the ".1" - for a dedicated sub. Unless you have mains that can handle frequencies below 40-50Hz with authority, you need a sub if you want maximum enjoyment out of your HT.

tony^v

Here are the spec. for my speakers





– J1000MV
10" 3-Way Shielded Floor Standing





SPECIFICATIONS:



General Section
• Recommended Power Amplifier Range: 10 - 175 watts
• Nominal Impedance: 8 ohms
• Woofer: 10" nitrile polymer fiber cone
• Midrange Driver: 6.5" nitrile polymer fiber cone
• Tweeter: 14mm composite dome
• Frequency Response: 40Hz - 20kHz
• Crossover Frequency(ies): 400Hz, 3.5kHz
• Sensitivity: 92dB (1 watt/1 meter)
• MSRP U.S.: $350.00 each


I guess I need a sub.

eddieZEN

Virtually *ANY* sub, even the cheaper ones under $200, makes a difference especially if you're in a relatively small room.

And if you're a bass freak, you can set your towers on "large" so that you'll be getting bass from both the sub and the mains at the same time.

BTW, what JBL towers do you have? I was looking at the e90s which retail for around $600 at Best Buy but I can get for $300 shipped, but have heard some people complain that JBLs are very harsh sounding.

Jeff Gatie

Do not be fooled by FR specs such as these. Without output variables (i.e. -6dB @ 40Hz) you cannot tell what the FR actually is. What good is a speaker that supposedly has a FR of 40Hz - 20kHz if it is producing far less output at 40Hz than it is at 100 Hz? This is why you will always see reputable sub manufacturers listing their frequency response as something like "-3dB @ 25Hz". Still, even if the JBL's you have are completely flat down to 40Hz (doubtful), you are still missing a great deal of low level information below 40Hz. You would benefit greatly purchasing a quality sub with flat FR down to say 25Hz or below,

tony^v

The JBLs I have are:

– J1000MV
10" 3-Way Shielded Floor Standing

I bought them about 10 years ago @ topps.
They sound pretty good with the new receiver. Not sure why? I still would like to replace them with atoms but not until I pay off the receiver first.

ScottHH

According to the manual the J100MV Frequency Response -6db 40Hz - 20kHz

So at 40Hz, power is only 25% vs. flat. Your main speakers cannot handle bass like a subwoofer can.

I'm not sure what happens when you set the subwoofer to off. Either the information is lost, or it is sent to the main speakers. Can someone chime in here? Is this potentially bad for the main speakers as they can't produce super-low freqencies?



That's not how I understand large/small works.
The LFE channel is always directed to the sub.
When you set the speakers to large, nothing is re-directed.
When you set the speakers to small, the bass in that channel is re-directed to the sub.

So if your speakers can't produce low bass, and you set them to large, you'll be hearing less bass than if you set them to small and directed the bass to a speaker that can produce those frequencies.

My main speakers are -3db at 33Hz. And I get much more bass when my subwoofer is on. Since you seem to like the extra bass you're getting now vs. your previous setup, you'll likely enjoy the additional bass from a subwoofer.

tony^v

Scott what kind of main speakers do you have?

ScottHH

They're NHT VT1.2's. I got them on close-out 5 years ago.

ScottCHI

of course, most receivers, if they manage bass properly, redirect the LFE to the mains in this situation. is it potentially bad? i guess if the receiver's volume is set too loudly already, then the really low note could, potentially, do more damage to a speaker than another note that's not as low. but generally, no. speakers have a natural roll-off designed into them and if a note is too low, the speaker does what it can, otherwise just doesn't play it.
with an "LFE+Main"-type (or similar) subwoofer setting in the receiver (and many receivers have this sort of setting), redundant low bass information IS sent to the subwoofer. this is generally not desirable, but probably works for many people because their mains are not truly full-range speakers, and are rolling-off through the low bass region, therefore diminishing the redundancy. many people like the "thump" this setting can add to their music versus running their mains as SMALL. but an "LFE+Main"-type setting with mains that can truly go down to, say 30Hz or lower, would sound very bassy in almost all but the hairiest of situations.

and there are other, "less conventional" ways to get the low frequency bass and/or LFE into BOTH the sub AND mains, too. such as connecting a sub to a receiver's front pre-outs instead of the sub-out, running the receiver set up with no sub, and utilizing the sub's low-pass filter, for example.

(ok, sheesh, time to quit editing this post.)

"All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it."