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Home Theater Forum > Home Theater Hardware > Speakers and Subwoofers
[ SVS PC-Ultra is now available ]

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Old 01-04-2004, 11:57 PM   #1 of 18
Roger Q
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SVS is now accepting pre-orders for their new PC-Ultra.

http://www.svsubwoofers.com/subs_pc_ultra.htm

Sorry for the criptic URL. Just replace dashes with periods.
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Old 01-05-2004, 04:49 AM   #2 of 18
Lewis Besze
 
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http://www.svsubwoofers.com/subs_pc_ultra.htm
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Old 01-05-2004, 01:44 PM   #3 of 18
Bo Assdale
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I originally had my mind set on the PC 20-39+, but with this new PC-Ultra "coming to town" I really don't know!

My HT-room is only about 4x4 meters, so even with the 20-39+ I guess I'll still have a good amount of headroom?!
(But then again I might move into something bigger later on!)

Is it only extra dB's that the Ultra will "deliver" when compared to the +-series or is it also a "tighter" bass- it delivers?!

A PC 2039+ will set me back 1388$ and a PC Ultra will set me back 1800$ (at least)!!

What should I invest in?!



Police + Cops =PoliceCops
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Old 01-05-2004, 03:26 PM   #4 of 18
WayneO
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I don't believe your going to get a benefit worth $400 unless you must have the best the absolute last ounce of performance. A PC+ in that room is gonna have no problems filling it. The jury is still out on whether it'll be "tighter" since noone has one yet. And to be honest, I've never heard Ron or Tom over at SVS really give a solid statement on the driver accuracy between the three woofers they have currently. Guess an email could solve that........



If the best advice is "listen for yourself", then why offer your opinion?
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Old 01-05-2004, 04:24 PM   #5 of 18
JohnSmith
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Bo Assdale-I have the 20-39 PC Plus in a 4M x 4M room. It really has lots of reserve output left. In fact I've just been trying out some really low bits- and felt plugging one port/adjusting ss filter to 16hz adds lots of lower end. It's still got lots of reserve. Plugging the sub lower than the stock tune will loose a couple of dB output. Haven't had tie to play with the new tune, but played back Toy Story II intro and that seems fine (and lower stuff being reproduced of course)

Calibrated the other speakers (7.0) at 80dB, with subwoofer at 82/83dB. All speakers set to 80hz, sub at 80hz.
At -5 dB it has no problems with really low & loud stuff. Read my review for the 20-39 PC Plus on Audioreview (Nathan the limey)

Adding two ports to 12hz causes some port noise, and driver moves quite a bit, so not sure that's advisable. I've put it back to 16hz.

I really doubt you'll need the Ultra. Unless you want to go deaf.

The PC Plus wees all over a Rel Storm.. totally in another league.

I can understand you want to buy the best you can afford (I felt the same- wanted the Ultra version, as I thought my Storm could be similar to the Plus) however it's much much better (goes lower, goes loude) so I would say the Ultra would be a bit of waste- you'll never need the extra output.
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Old 01-05-2004, 06:44 PM   #6 of 18
Roger Q
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Send Tom or Ron an email to check on your "tightness" question.
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Old 01-05-2004, 08:36 PM   #7 of 18
Derrik Draven
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I wonder if there is any possibility that SVS will be offering their "ultra" series, either powered or not, in the other models, ie 16/46...ect? Why stick with the 20/39 only?



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Old 01-06-2004, 12:43 AM   #8 of 18
Tom Vodhanel
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Hi all,


First, remember that terms like “fast”, “tight” ,”musical” are subjective in nature. So by definition, what audio enthusiast A thinks is "fast/tight/musical"...audio enthusiast B may not. Also, human bias will enter into the equation at some point. for example, If a manufacturer goes into great detail about how “fast” their bass is...after reading enough about that...some folks will naturally have a predisposition to believe it. So when they get the product home...by god the bass IS fast.. (this is the same human workings that cause us to hear differences when painting the edge of your CD green---well, the website explained it in 5 pages with big words and they have a bunch of testimonials...so...)

When talking about "fast bass", a subwoofer reviewer once said to me..."oh yeah, the bass was so fast it got out of the room before I could measure it".

It is also important to consider the length of sound waves in this context and how that relates to their decay in a typical room. A 20hz sound wave is about 55ft long. The longer the sound wave, the more time it is going to take to decay. This longer decay time is often interpreted as “slow bass” simply because the bass doesn't *snap* to a sudden stop(as it may with a subwoofer that rolls off in the 35-50hz range). It isn't a coincidence that the majority of subwoofers that claim to be “tight/musical” are small/moderate sized sealed designs. If you look for objective performance data on these units, you'll notice there is one definite trend...they all tend to have a frequency response which rolls off in the 32-50hz range. Tom Nousaine has a lot of good FR data on a ton of subwoofers. Audio magazine and Audio Ideas Guide both used to have a lot of FR data in all their subwoofer reviews too. (AIG might still, haven't had time to pick up a copy for a few months).

Now, there is nothing wrong in preferring that type of sound...it is a personal preference after all. But the correlation between what you think is “fast/tight” often has little to do with any magic a given manufacturer knows...and more to do with the very basics of the units performance...the frequency response(and several other factors introduced below).

In the words of Bill Cosby, (paraphrased)"I told you that...so I can tell you this"...


Among SVS designs, the Ultra driver is definitely top dog. I'm not going to wax poetically about its design...it is just a very good unit(and very expensive). The dB12 (Plus driver) is also a very good design, just not up to the same standards. The same can be said for the ISD driver we use in the PCi/CS,PB-1 and PB-2isd subwoofers. At low volume levels, all three of these units are going to sound nearly identical...only as the volume levels increase will the qualities of the dB12 and then the Ultra driver manifest themselves into audible benefits. Just how MUCH the volume levels would need to increase depends on many variables...and just how audible the differences were...would depend on additional variables...including the listeners experience and insight into how these difference may present themselves during source material playback. Here is an example of how THD (total harmonic distortion) may present itself…

Let’s use 25hz and 90/95/100/105/110dB levels (just an example remember…)

The Ultra driver may produce <1% THD up to 100dBs, than 3% at 105 and 6% at 110.

The dB12 driver may produce <1% up to 95dBs, 2% at 100dBs , 6% at 105dBs and 9% at 110dBs.

The ISD driver may produce <1% at 90dBs, 2% at 95dBs, 4% at 100dBs, 8% at 105dBs and 12% at 110dBs.

Now, you can say…”well, the ISD driver has 4x (!) the distortion at 100dBs…boy that would HAVE to sound just god-awful. Well, maybe. If you were listening to a sine wave. With source material…this difference will be inaudible in just about any imaginable scenario. (the difference between 1% and 4% THD at 25hz) Most folks will notice the difference between 1% THD and 10% THD. But anything <5% (<35hz) is going to be very tough to discern with source material (and practically impossible with the LFE on DVD-films).

The interesting part about THD, since it manifests itself at multiples of the source frequency...a higher THD level can actually make the subwoofer seem more musical. A musical instruments sound is defined by its harmonics. A bass guitar playing a 42hz note will have it's THD at 84,126,168hz (ect). So a subwoofer having a higher 3rd order harmonic (126hz)...can actually give the audio presentation an "easier to follow" bass line. Since that 126hz harmonic is now louder (than it was with the subwoofer with less distortion).

Another important issue is dynamic compression. A subwoofer that doesn’t suffer from much dynamic compression is often referred to as “effortless” in subjective descriptions. One way to test for this is to loop a bassy scene on a DVD and to trun up the system in 3dB steps. Set your SPL meter at any spot and check to see when the bass stops increasing the full 3dBs. At some point…it will only get 2.5dBs louder, 2dBs louder,1dB louder and finally…it will stop getting louder. I would only recommend raising the volume until it only got 2dBs louder because by that point…the subwoofer is already straining. Pushing it further will only increase any chances of damaging the unit.

Another example, …say a 2500 cu-ft room, and a nice 26hz LFE scene(like the heart beats in the opening scene of The Professional…) Let’s say 1 meter from a corner loaded unit.

A 20-39PCi may begin to show some compression at 110dBs. Impressive, but still 11dBs under reference level with all speakers set to small. A 20-39PC+ may get to 113dBs…and a PC_Ultra may get to 115dBs. So in this context(all other factors being equal), the PC_Ultra will have about double the clean output capabilities of the 20-39PCi…if dynamic compression is one of the factors used in determining that(clean output). The driver directly relates to compression in two primary ways…excursion capabilities and thermal compression. If the driver cannot move any farther in one direction…the nass will stop getting louder. Once the voice coil heats up to a given temperature, the driver won’t be as efficient in turning electrical power into mechanical motion. In this regard, the Ultra driver has a big advantage over the ISD. It isn’t that the ISD is a substandard unit…but with a 10 layer custom would coil…the thermal capabilities of the Ultra driver are incredible.

So?

On louder, sustained bass…it wouldn’t surprise me if someone felt the dB12 driver seemed “tighter” than the ISD. And, it wouldn’t surprise me if someone felt the Ultra driver seemed “tighter” than the dB12. (I know ,I know…all that and my answer is actually two sentences long..

Tom V.
SVS
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Old 01-06-2004, 02:56 AM   #9 of 18
Jeffrey Forner
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Quote:
Originally posted by Derrik Draven:
I wonder if there is any possibility that SVS will be offering their "ultra" series, either powered or not, in the other models, ie 16/46...ect? Why stick with the 20/39 only?

I've wondered the same thing myself. Still, if you're really interested in getting that very deep sub-sonic bass found on many DVDs, it is possible to tune the sub to 16Hz with the help of a port blocker and the SS filter on the amp. The only downside is that you lose just a little bit of output in doing so.

This begs the question, how would an PC-Ultra tuned to 16Hz compare with a 16-46PC-Plus model in terms of output? Would the Ultra still have a clear advantage or would they be more or less equal?

By the way, Derrik, as a fellow 16-46PC-Plus owner, are you thinking what I'm thinking?



-J.Fo
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