Rel Subs?!

terence · 12-06-2003, 12:06 PM

I have a friend who wants a Rel after hearing one and i my self have heard one. I think there are musical subs, but it lacks slam (IMO)with movies to my ears. I was messing around on the web and ran across this Rel sub, reading the specs on the model below struck me as REALLY?! So my question is has anyone heard this sub and is the 9Hz claim true? If so very impressive, also you don't get how they acheive that astounding 9Hz either.

Studio III

US Retail: $9,000

The Ultimate reference subwoofer. 500 watt, high current, DC coupled internal amplifier,Super ARM™ loaded cabinet, Two redesigned 10" Big Ten Volt driver. Neutrik Speakon™ ABC high level input and high level balanced input for differential amps, dual RCA stereo low level inputs.. Separate volume controls for low and high level. Phase reversal switchand A/C ground lifting switch. Freq response to 9 Hz. Glass top. Rosenut, Cherry, or Black Oak finishes. 27"w x 24 ½"h x 22 ½"d. 287 lbs.

http://www.sumikoaudio.net/REL.htm

Michael R Price · 12-06-2003, 12:49 PM

Ha ha ha... I don't think you need personal experience with these to know that 9Hz is stretching it. I have heard a subwoofer that can produce a clean 12Hz, but it's twice the size of the REL and still can't make much sound at that frequency before port noise becomes a problem.

Of course, REL may have their amplifier EQ'd down to 9Hz so they get a better phase response and less group delay. I know Linkwitz does this in his active dipole system, it might be a benefit even if there's no real output at the cutoff frequency.

Edward J M · 12-06-2003, 02:12 PM

REL makes that claim for a corner loaded application, but they don't list the room size, sound pressure, distortion, or the mic distance from the sub.

REL uses a transmission line to achieve some very long port lengths, so with EQ it might be possible for the sub to play that low. But without any other qualifying data, that number alone is rather useless.

I can think of several sub companies and DIY'ers right off the bat that could make far better use of $9,000.

Phil A · 12-06-2003, 04:45 PM

Some of that was discussed here: http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htfo...hreadid=171808

Like everything else it needs to be set-up properly and depends on what your goals are. I don't find them lacking for home theater, just that for home theater alone (vs. music) there are better choice that put out more output for less money. Unless 2-channel music is a big priority and you turn off the dsp (e.g. analog direct) so that the high level connection of the Rel gets a signal from your amp and is crossed over at an appropriate point on the Rel to match your mains you don't need to own one. The Rels have 2 connections, high (speaker) level and low (RCA/XLR that gets connected to the sub out of the processor) level like other subs with separate volume controls for each and a crossover for the high level connection so that one can match it to your mains when bypassing the processor crossover by going analog direct. So I would think that the majority of the people on a forum like this would not find it at its price point as desirable as other things available in the market.

Lewis Besze · 12-06-2003, 08:29 PM

While I have a duall porpuse set up,I put a big importance to music reproduction be it stereo or Multi channel.So naturally true extension with matching output is a requirement by me.but I also demand that it would blend with the mains well,and don't over accentuate some of the frquencies.All those are greatly influnced by the room.I found Rel to be poor value even for a music sub.While it's connection compliments are real good,that and it's sound charatheristics can be duplicated by a fraction of it's price,even in the commercial realm.BTW every sub needs to be "properly set up",and I don't just mean to drop it in a room and play with the electronic adjusments it came with it,and the Pre/pro.It may require EQ/room treatment,and carefull positioning.

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Phil A · 12-07-2003, 01:36 AM

For 2-channel there is simply nothing like a Rel. I've set up about 80-100 of them with my friend who works at a high end store. I've seen everything else out there (including those that advertise as clones) and for theater alone there are much better choices for output alone. Rels are not cheap and not a good choice for just someone who is much more into theater or does not understand the difference on what a sub needs to do for music. Other subs can do similar things with expensive outboard crossovers. For the majority here, they would not serve as a good choice.

Lewis Besze · 12-07-2003, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Other subs can do similar things with expensive outboard crossovers. For the majority here, they would not serve as a good choice

Quote:

on what a sub needs to do for music.

Perhaps you wanna shed some light, on how a sub "works differently" when it's playing frequencies from music instead of movie tracks?

Michael R Price · 12-07-2003, 03:41 PM

Right, seriously. Doesn't the standardized movie sound system provide a nearly ideal crossover?

Phil A · 12-07-2003, 04:32 PM

Lewis, there have been other posts that covered that. Rels are not for every situation. I've had several of the more discussed subs in out of more than one system and I ended up keeping another brand for use when I do the basement. I would not think a Rel is worth the extra expense for the room, required output, etc., and it would be a waste of money for the purpose intended as is the case with my bedroom system. A $9k sub is a statement piece anyway and would be silly for most applications. I worked on one system with a pair of $85k Dynaudios and the person used the model below the $9k model.

I've also installed many subs in systems with more than one sub. For movies it may be popular based on the room and desired goals to be put them in a single corner to get the most output. It may not be out of the ordinary to have music subs depending on the room and other factors to place them on opposite corners.

The crossovers built into processors are not necessarily going to be a good match for the speakers and rooms involved to optimize the nature of bass frequencies which sum. Adding EQ may introduce other problems as does any other circuit in the signal path (I prefer to treat the room first). Some of the more modern processors built into receivers have taken some of this stuff into acct. and allow different level settings for the sub output for music or movies to allow them to be more flexible for the situtaion.

The Rels as previously noted have separate volume controls for the high and low level connections. The high level connection (from your amp to the Rel via a Neutrik Speakon connector) has a chart of letters and number where one can set the rolloff frequency as places like 22HZ, 23HZ, 25HZ, etc., which can be set at the proper point (as noted bass frequencies sum) to fill in the bass the mains don't reproduce and give one appropriate bass. If one can't turn off the DSP or sub output and go analog direct then a Rel is not particulary useful.

With proper measurement equipment (I use an Audio Control R-130 one third octave RTA which is OK but likely lame to a real pro. This makes for some good reading: http://www.audiorevolution.com/equip/roomtune/.

So without boring too many people, a souped-up Mustang may give one a good chunk of the performance of an expensive sports car. It still isn't one. Modern receivers in terms of flexbility have gotten a lot better with flexibilty on bass management but are still designed for home theater (which is great).

I don't have any idea how the 9HZ measurement spec was arrived as noted in the initial post. High end cos. do make statment pieces. Linn makes a $20k CD player (CD-12) and a $3.6k player (Ikemi) that may give one a good chunk of the performance. The higher up the chain, the more dimishing returns. I think for the majority (myself included) a $9k sub is probably not worth it. I would guess about a 25-30% of the Rels set-up (or at least a good chunk) are in music only systems. It is not the best choice for output for the buck on system that will be used more for theater. I would not consider them in the 2 systems I would use that way. For music systems, a sub should compliment what is there and when set-up properly should not even be noticed. When I put on stuff I've listened to over and over that sounds like real music, it is fairly obvious as to the system set-up. It is the rare exception where I've seen home theater systems sound like a high end 2-channel system in listening to music. This does not mean there is a right and wrong for everyone. I know people who work in stores and set things up to have more bass since that is what their customers have come to expect. I was in a store with a friend the other day and we listened to a pair of $10k speakers 4-way speakers powered by 8 amps with a $13k pre/pro, a very expensive universal player and we were both amazed how bad it sounded. So price also does not determine quality.

Lewis Besze · 12-07-2003, 05:25 PM

Phil, good post,but I belive you "dodged" the question regarding the Rel's superiority[sound] on music compared to "anything else" in your opinion.I reckognise it's superrior connectivity options as I posted that before.
Also why is that when a sub can push a few liters of air at 20hz, it's suddenly only good for movies but not for music?
I see that "argument" being laid all over,with no sound explanation as of why,by the claiments.
Good link BTW,this is something I "preach" my self for a long time now, how people wanna fix or achieve better results with buying new equipment,and they totally ignore of what they have,and how to set it up "correctly".