The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews - Page 28

JLKINSER · 07-16-2008, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by michael_ks

Now that's very interesting. I'll have to dig out my copy of Robertson's book and check this out for myself. Did Pete Rugolo himself compose it? Who else would it have been?

Even more frustrating, when I was re-reading the book, Rugolo said that he even wrote the fill in music for some of the background music: Example for the radios playing in the background and other things. I believe it was around page 34 or so where I saw this. If this is true, and I don't see any reason it wouldn't be since it was quoted from Rugolo himself, there was NO reason for CBS/Paramount to change ANY of the music. They were just too lazy and to fast to make a buck to check things out. Maybe we need to highlight this material and send them a copy of Robertson's book!

Harry-N · 07-16-2008, 03:45 PM

You may all be forgetting one thing. A song used in a show actually has more than one "right" associated with it. There's also a thing called performance rights. It's possible that Janis Paige or her estate control her performance rights to the song and are either difficult or impossible to determine or work out.

It's the reason that most variety shows with music performances are not available in home video, as securing the rights are difficult, time-consuming, and likely prohibitive.

Harry

JLKINSER · 07-16-2008, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harry-N

You may all be forgetting one thing. A song used in a show actually has more than one "right" associated with it. There's also a thing called performance rights. It's possible that Janis Paige or her estate control her performance rights to the song and are either difficult or impossible to determine or work out.

It's the reason that most variety shows with music performances are not available in home video, as securing the rights are difficult, time-consuming, and likely prohibitive.

Harry

If that is the case, why not just pay some one else to sing the song written for the show and replace it with some one else singing the song written? Instead, the write a new song, have some one sing it, and cut footage to make it work. Seems it would have been more cost effective to have some one else sing the song and lip sync it to the original footage.

BillyFeldman · 07-16-2008, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JLKINSER

If that is the case, why not just pay some one else to sing the song written for the show and replace it with some one else singing the song written? Instead, the write a new song, have some one sing it, and cut footage to make it work. Seems it would have been more cost effective to have some one else sing the song and lip sync it to the original footage.

Janis Paige's vocal would have been part of her contract for appearing in the show - a work for hire - and there would be no estate rights whatsoever. It's the USE of the song itself - if it wasn't composed specifically for the show, it could have publishing rights issues. If it was not recorded specifically for the show, i.e. is a popular record, then there are not only publishing rights but synch rights. If Janis Paige sung it FOR the show specifically, the only rights involved are publishing, and if it was a non-original to the show song, that could be a problem. If it was written for the show specifically and Miss Paige sang it, there should be no problem at all.

EDIT: I've now read the other posts from yesterday and understand that the song was part of the teleplay - therefore, whoever owns the publishing on the show owns that publishing to the song, so there should have been no problem keeping it. And no problem with Miss Paige's estate, since it was a work for hire. But you have these lawyers on salary whose job it is to raise questions about every issue - then everyone panics, doesn't do the research and this is the result - the bastardization of a classic show for absolutely no reason. Again, if the five Capitol cues were the issue, figure out how many times they were used over the course of the season, and replace those only.

Harry-N · 07-16-2008, 09:07 PM

And how many lawyers does it take to recognize music cues?

How many current CBS/Paramount employees do you think could recognize Capitol music cues? Some of us here could, but not ALL of us here.

Harry

BTW: I'm just playing "Devil's Advocate" here and trying to look at things from their side. I still think the whole thing stinks and get a sinking feeling everytime I glance over at the DVD set and realize what's on it (or not on it!).

Carabimero · 07-16-2008, 09:50 PM

This had nothing to do with legal people not recognizing music cues. The problem is, they had no WILL to even try. I'm not the smartest guy in the world, but if there's something I don't know that's crucial to my job, I'm smart enough to either go find out or track someone down who does know. The problem with CBS/Paramount Home Entertainment is their lack of will to take the time to enlighten themselves before they make easy snips and rescore music. It's a reflex they've developed. A habit. Half the songs they cut from GOMER PYLE were unnecessary. They snipped everything.

They don't care when it comes to going the extra mile.

BillyFeldman · 07-17-2008, 02:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harry-N

And how many lawyers does it take to recognize music cues?

How many current CBS/Paramount employees do you think could recognize Capitol music cues? Some of us here could, but not ALL of us here.

Harry

BTW: I'm just playing "Devil's Advocate" here and trying to look at things from their side. I still think the whole thing stinks and get a sinking feeling everytime I glance over at the DVD set and realize what's on it (or not on it!).

If they'd wanted to, they could simply have asked one of the several experts on TV music - the fellow who did the article in Variety for one - he's written books about TV film music and knows all about the library cues.

michael_ks · 07-17-2008, 11:51 AM

Quote:

If they'd wanted to, they could simply have asked one of the several experts on TV music - the fellow who did the article in Variety for one - he's written books about TV film music and knows all about the library cues.

Who was that, BTW? Off hand I can think of at least two highly knowledgable people in the field: Randall D. Larson and Jon Burlingame. Even if they didn't have answers at their fingertips, they almost certainly would know how and where to look.

Heck, John Elizalde (music supervisor for "Fugitive", "Rawhide", etc.) is still with us, why didn't Paramount bother to check with him?

BillyFeldman · 07-17-2008, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by michael_ks

Who was that, BTW? Off hand I can think of at least two highly knowledgable people in the field: Randall D. Larson and Jon Burlingame. Even if they didn't have answers at their fingertips, they almost certainly would know how and where to look.

Heck, John Elizalde (music supervisor for "Fugitive", "Rawhide", etc.) is still with us, why didn't Paramount bother to check with him?

The Variety article was by Jon Burlingame.

Harry-N · 07-17-2008, 02:35 PM

One of the reasons I asked the question about identifying cues is that I recently sat down with the new DVD of "Man In A Chariot" and synched it up with the audio from the VHS of that episode from NuVentures.

Now I hadn't really seen this episode in a long time, but what I noticed was that even the original version on the tape had way different music than just the typical Rugolo cues. In fact, through the teaser and Act I, I only heard the familiar Rugolo cues at the start and end of the act. All of the other music was unfamiliar to me.

I don't know if Elizalde or whoever put the music on this episode originally was conscious of the fact that it was the first episode of a new season and perhaps used some newly available cues from elsewhere, but the episode sounded different to me than a typical Fuge episode.

I pointed out earlier in this thread the discrepancy on the way the show opens. As the teaser ends in the VHS version, the picture fades to black as we hear the drumroll of the theme beginning. The picture switches to the closing freeze-frame of Kimble the trainyard (like most end credits) with the first-season device of the show title (THE FUGITIVE) starting out as a centered horizontal line and expanding upward and downward until the white-bordered black lettering is visible.

The opening from then on looks the same as the one on the DVD. The DVD opens with the diagonal "pixelling" device happening over the final frame of the teaser as we hear the drum roll. So there's some altering of the opening titles in this set as wekk, at least on this one episode, which may have originally been a transitional episode to the new-style opening.

In my synching up of the VHS with the DVD, everything stayed in sync pretty well through the credits and Act I. The beginning of Act II was slightly off, but a quick pause of one or the other brought it back into sync. That tells me that the NuVentures tape of this episode was transferred at the correct speed at least.

Now if I only had the software and means to capture the correct sound and good video together, I'd do it. But I'm not that sophistocated, I guess.

Harry

Carabimero · 07-17-2008, 03:41 PM

Harry I am working on the episodes as we speak. My reconstruction project has been delayed by "real" work but it is in the pipeline.

Is the running time on that episode the same as the DVD? Some Nu Ventures are around 46:30 while most of the DVDs are around 51:20.

Sylvia*ST · 07-17-2008, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harry-N

And how many lawyers does it take to recognize music cues?

Um, 25. 24 to say "throw it all out" and one slightly tone deaf guy who says, "why don't we look it up?" The 24 ignore him, of course.

Sorry, couldn't resist.