Hopefully some insight to this Split-Season DVD set argument

progrocktv · 12-27-2007, 01:29 PM

Alright I've seen this argued in other threads so I decided to make it's own separate thread with hopefully a little insight I've gotten through experience while working in the "industry" (not directly related to DVD, but we dealt with lots of studios when dealing with TV series and some of it indirectly related to DVD releases) Now to be fair this is not necessarily standard practice with all the studios, as we know each studio have their own way of dealing with things, and these are only various bits and pieces of into put together to make a clearer picture.

First off when a studio decides to remaster a series for a DVD release, they usually have other plans for it as well (for example if a series is ordered by a major cable company, the series might be remastered for the syndication package as well as a potential DVD release to maximise the remastering cost effectiveness, and vice versa) Look at Star Trek the original series.

Now let's say the studio is unsure of the sales potential for a DVD release, so they'll split each season up in two sets, if the first one does not sell, then they cancel the run of the second half (it doesn't sound like much, but DVD releases cost studios MILLIONS to release, and one bad release can sink sales figures for an entire fiscal quarter.) A good example of this is the first release of the Mary Tyler Moore Show, the price was high, sales were HORRIBLE and Fox took a hit on it (in fact I've even heard it used as a buzzword in a few conversations referring to a poor selling release. "Keep it to 10,000, otherwise you're dealing with a MTM")

Next is consumer economics. As stated in another thread a $20-ish price tag is MUCH more appealing to consumers than $40-50. Once you're above, let's say $25 then you're driving the "impulse buy" away. Also many consumers do want to purchase an entire season but let's face it our economy is not at it's best and consumers have less and less disposable income now adays to plop down $60-$100 at one time.

And finally, I know it's sounds illogical and I'm probably going to upset some people on this forum, but many people, who are the hardcore fans of a series, are upset at the split season sets and are refusing to buy. That's all fine and dandy but honestly the hardcore fans aren't the most important customer to most of the studios and most of the time are only considered "a small, vocal minority". It's the "average consumer" they are after for the bulk of the sales most of the time and if a couple of diehard fans are upset, so be it. I've had quite a few conversations with sales departments of some of the major studios and the "Hardcores" as some of them call them, can be bittersweet, even hearing "fans can either be a blessing or a major thorn in the side". In other words they can help with the promotion of a series, which is considered a blessing, or they can be "whiners" which is then considered a burden. In other words if the hardcores aren't buying, but the general public IS, no big loss in the studio's eyes. Again this is NOT standard practice throughout the industry, but just a few pieces of information I've come across in my professional experience.

It all boils down to money, plain and simple. The bottom line is what drives a business and is the #1 priority (even above making people happy) I don't think I've ever meet anyone who is senior management level and above who is still in this business because they are a fan of movies or TV series, and releasing "a cool TV series" or something "for the fans" is still #1 priority. Sure it might have lured them in this industry in the first place, but as time goes by that passion is overshadowed by increasing ratings, profit for the company which in turn saves their ass from being fired (which is THEIR #1 priority). I have seen some GREAT upper-level managers on the programming side, who had a real passion for movies and TV and brought that I thought some cool things to the company I was working for, including some FANTASTIC rare TV shows, but the numbers did not come in, and they were quickly gone and replaced. I saw myself heading that direction, that's why I left the company, because the passion was replaced by survival (and if that's the way it was going to be then I can make a TON more money doing something else).

Anyways most of this is on the programming side, but I would easily see something similar happening in the DVD industry.

David Levine · 12-27-2007, 01:53 PM

Outstanding post.

And as someone who has been working in the DVD industry for over 10 years, I'd say you are pretty much "dead on" across the board.

Jeff*H · 12-27-2007, 02:00 PM

Thanks for the helpful insight. A vocal minority in the forums seems to think that the studios "owe" the fans, but ultimately in this business they have sales projections, spending budgets to adhere to, revenue budgets to hit, opportunity costs (foregoing one release to put out another), execs to answer to and so much careful thought and analysis has to go into every single decision that is made, or it can ruin a business division's fiscal year.

The studio does have a responsibility to put out a quality product, but if the product is not hitting their sales projections, they have no obligation to anyone to continue it, in fact it would be folly to continue bankrolling a DVD that generates a revenue deficit if one cares about keeping their job. Yes, on occasion revenue projections can be flawed, but for the most part studios use historical data to drive these projections, which is hard to ignore as long as you are comparing apples to apples.

Jeff Willis · 12-27-2007, 03:04 PM

Phil,

I agree with David's post. You summed it up A+ in your starting post and thanks for the thread. I know it's a big issue on this forum.

Ok, now that I've read it

I'll re-post my 2 main issues about this issue that I've previously posted elsewhere since this is the topic here, starting with attempting to "place" myself in one of the DVD-buying categories mentioned by Phil's initial post.

I'd probably have to place myself in the "hardcore/minority" section of the TV/DVD consumer but, IMO, I have a more "flexible" approach than some here on this forum with the s/s releases. I've not yet bypassed a s/s purchase of a release of a series that's on my collector's list but it's become more difficult for me to continue purchasing s/s sets for the reasons mentioned below.

1) Communication. If it were possible for the studios to communicate to the consumer, that would be very helpful to me as a collector. For example, if "Studio A" knew that "Series X" was taken off their release list, after, say, releasing Season 1 of a 3-4 season series, it would help me out with the waiting for that series' status. I wouldn't need to wait for a release announcement that's not going to occur. In this case, I'd have to concede that I'm referring to the TV/DVD collector/hardcore type more than the average impulse/non-online buyer.

2) Consistancy. Regarding the split-season issue, there appears to be no consistancy in some, or the majoriy of studio's s/s release's marketing approaches. There have been numerous examples of specific series that have been posted on other threads on this Bd of some series that see complete-season releases and others that are in the s/s group. Is it a black/white older series issue that dictates the s/s releases? IE, the assumption (or due to the actual sales #'s that we don't have access to) that B/W series don't sell as well as color series? If so, I wonder why some of the color series (Love Boat) are also seeing s/s releases?

It may be just IMO here, but I've got the impression that most here would like to see consistancy in the TV/DVD mkt regarding release trends. Consider a "sports analogy" of an Umpire calling inconsistant balls & strikes during a baseball game, etc. We don't see any clear strategy with these s/s releases. Take the series "Rawhide", for example. Season 1 was released as a complete-season release. Season 2 was released in s/s sets. I assume that it's due to the low sales #'s of S1. Another example is "The Big Valley". Taking BV as an example, if the S1 #'s were below expectations, why did the studio initially release S2 V1 at the same price as the complete-season S1 set? Was it to try to catch up on a revenue shortfall caused by the low #"s from S1 sales?

Just some questions that I've wondered about with the s/s releases.

If we're at the mercy of the "impulse/see it at the BB, Walmart bin's and grab it" consumers, then.....that's how it is. Can't say I like it.

progrocktv · 12-27-2007, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Willis

1) Communication. If it were possible for the studios to communicate to the consumer, that would be very helpful to me as a collector. For example, if "Studio A" knew that "Series X" was taken off their release list, after, say, releasing Season 1 of a 3-4 season series, it would help me out with the waiting for that series' status. I wouldn't need to wait for a release announcement that's not going to occur.

I certainly agree, it would make things much easier. However there are two factors that get in the way. First off the studios are worried about scaring off the customers if a poor selling series is suddenly cut off (for example if someone is planning on buying Mary Tyler Moore, but heard they only released the first 4 seasons they may be reluctant to make that initial purchase if they, at some point, would like to eventually end up with the entire series.

Also second, management decisions can take a sudden left turn on a dime in this industry. This can be due top shift in direction of the company, change in release priorities, current market trends, change in personnel (sure the last VP wanted to release Barney Miller, and now the current VP who just replaced him doesn't want to, etc) but the door is still left open, stuff like that. Also there can be delays in mastering, finding elements and the like which wouldn't be in the best interests of the studios PR to say "well the well-respected post production house didn't evaluate the elements correctly in the first place and the masters are much worse than originally thought and they can't work fast enough so we're still working on it" which of course would follow badgering of "Is it done yet? Is it done yet? Is it done yet?" from the various retailers, trade publications and (cough) fans

So taking the "no news is good news" approach is probably the safest way to handle it.

Having said that, I do need to classify myself in more of the "Hardcore" area.
It was kind of interesting being a hardcore fan and actually part of the industry. I got a chuckle on the rare occasion when I could tell the sales department of a studio about things they had even the sales rep didn't know about

"Yes, there was an unaired version of the pilot with an additional 10 minutes" "Really, there was??? HMMMM let me check the compu....you know there is something here.....yea, you're right, I didn't know we had that!"
But DVD-wise I was near the front of the line pre-ordering the Time Life Get Smart and more recently Man from U.N.C.L.E. sets and just got my pre-ordered Mod Squad season 1.1 set. Sure I would love to get the full season, however by the time I finish up the first part, the second is ready for release, so it works for at least me.

Cheers!
PRTV

**HTF Ads**

progrocktv · 12-27-2007, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Willis

If the S1 #'s were below expectations, why did the studio initially release S2 V1 at the same price as the complete-season S1 set? Was it to try to catch up on a revenue shortfall caused by the low #"s from S1 sales?

Yes, most likely. However other factors could have come into play as well (more restoration needed for S2, rights owners wanted more money, or .....(everybody, all together now)..... MUSIC RIGHTS ISSUES!

FanCollector · 12-27-2007, 04:51 PM

Phil--
Thanks for the insightful post. It confirmed some ideas and also gave me some new thoughts on the subject, too. I am not as concerned about full seasons and split seasons (though, of course, I prefer the full) as I am about cutting off series.

The only question I still have after your explanation is the one about licensed properties. Let's take Ironside as an example, although I can think of many others off the top of my head. If Shout Factory spent "millions" on the first season release, owed either license fees or royalties to Universal and charged a customer-scaring $60 retail price, how did they find it profitable enough to release a second season within six months? The show was successful in its time, but has been off the radar for many years. Somehow, they managed to work out a profitable formula.

The only explanation I see is profit margin. Let's say Ironside showed a profit of $100,000 (I know that because I just made it up.) A company like Universal might decide $100,000 is too small a profit to warrant the time and consumption of company resources, while Shout might be thrilled with that level of net profit. I am not one of those who feels that the studios owe us tv shows at their own expense, but I am less sympathetic to the complaint that they make money, but not enough. The Fox executive who was interviewed on this subject in, I believe, USA Today, said they didn't believe in licensing shows out (although they are licensing out Burke's Law) because if the shows can make a profit, he believes Fox should be able to figure out how. It seems, though, that Fox and the other major studios can't figure it out as well as Shout, Rhino, Hart Sharp, etc.

I ask you about this because you seem to have an inside view and might know what market factors I am ignoring.

progrocktv · 12-27-2007, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FanCollector

The only explanation I see is profit margin. Let's say Ironside showed a profit of $100,000 (I know that because I just made it up.) A company like Universal might decide $100,000 is too small a profit to warrant the time and consumption of company resources, while Shout might be thrilled with that level of net profit.

Now this is purely speculation on my part but using your above example my theory is that since TV Land aired this series a couple of years back, they just used the re-mastered prints Universal sold to TV Land for the DVD release. You're right that it's been a while since the series was around and I'd find it hard to think they would remaster the entire series just for the DVD release. However since TV Land bought the series (and presumably the remastering costs were included in that price) then releasing it on DVD is pretty much "bonus money" for Universal. Plus I'm assuming Shout Factory fit the bill for the DVD production and such, so all that Universal probably had to do is ship them the masters (without really using many company resources). I'm also wondering of the millions that Shout Factory mentioned might include the remastering price (which was presumably absorbed by TV Land)

Again, just speculation but it's not uncommon

Bryan^H · 12-27-2007, 05:26 PM

Great thread Phil.
I have stated in other posts that I don't usually care for volume sets of a season, but I've started to think more about it, and the logic seems right, especially for hour long shows(The Love Boat). If given the choice, I'd still buy a complete season set over a season volume set like The Fall Guy. From what I have noticed the volume sets are becoming more frequent, and as long as sales are good, and the time between releases is adequate I will have no problem buying a series this way.

Jeff Willis · 12-27-2007, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by progrocktv

Sure I would love to get the full season, however by the time I finish up the first part, the second is ready for release, so it works for at least me.

Cheers!
PRTV

Phil,

I see where you and I have similar TV/DVD viewing paces

I'm usually the same way. I have a lot of series on the shelf where I'm still in S1's or early S2's with an S3 or 4 on the shelf. One thing I know that it takes for me (to keep from marathon'ing through a set, particularly a s/s set) is discipline

I'm kidding here as I know that we all have different TV/DVD viewing routines. Take the "Fugitive" for example....thanks to the Bd members here that "hooked" me on this one

, I still have about 5 episodes left to view before Feb 26 when S1V2 is released. It'll be close but I think I'll be done about the same time V2 is at the door.

Thanks for the posts. Good info. I agree about the "communication" issue. I posted that one as one of my "perfect-world" wishes. I know that most of the info is proprietary to the studios. I suppose it would be analogous to my employer posting all of their Co info on a forum.

I guess I can look at TV/DVD collecting as a challenging hobby. One thing that I enjoy (not having all of the pre-release info) is that I can check TSoD for surprise news posts from Dave. Just this week, another Miniseries news post that I've been waiting for big-time ("Holocaust" '78).

I've been fortunate over the last 3 yrs to see several series released that I'd never have guessed would see TV/DVD releases: Combat!, Time Tunnel, Twilight Zone (orig), Get Smart, Dick Van Dyke, Addams Family, Black Sheep Squadron, Columbo, Hardy Boys/Nancy Drew (it's complete enough for me), Lois & Clark, New Avengers, Danger Man ("Secret Agent"), The Saint complete B/W set, most of The Rifleman. Those are most of my complete-series sets. Plus, I have a lot of series that look like they'll finish or are at least halfway done. All in all, I can't complain since I've been surprised a lot at TSoD during the past 3 yrs.

Sometimes, as the consumer, I also tend to emphasize the "negative" slant here, but all in all, it's been a great ride for me since '04 when I started to seriously collect TV/DVD. Some of these series, I'd never have guessed that the studios would have gambled on the release[s] recovering initial expenses.