A few words about... Ben-Hur - Page 2

Robert Crawford · 09-16-2005, 03:56 AM

The bottom line is that our expectations, especially when oriented toward our current video systems need to be tempered with reality.

Could it be sharper on current DVD? Possibly. Could the image have a steadier color resolution, without occasional pumping? Possibly. Would it take several million dollars to get there. Certainly.

I always thought that some of our home theater expectations are set so high that studios dealing with film elements, several years old cannot possibly meet such expectations without significant capital investment. Furthermore, based on my experience as a manager and operating within the restraint of budgets, I knew such expectations will not always be met and that some disappointment would be noted here.

The following excerpt taken from HTF's Mission Statement is an idealistic statement of expectations, but the realist in me has convinced me over the years that it's not always possible to achieve that ideal. However, that doesn't mean that we shouldn't press the studios to give us as good as product as possible and the only way I know how to do that without writing letters and sending emails is to discuss their dvd product in such threads as this one. That way, they can read and perhaps take notes of our concerns.

The Home Theater Forum is a place where those who enjoy watching movies in their homes can discuss all aspects of (re-)presenting films the best way they can. These discussions concern the film art itself, its products as well as the technical ways to create a theater-like experience inside a home.

We the members of the forum are interested in the film product to be recorded and reproduced as closely as possible to the way the original creator(s) of that particular film intended. We respect the integrity of all artists involved in creating the original film as well as those who helped bringing the product to a form suited to be used in a home theater environment.

Crawdaddy

Mark Anthony · 09-16-2005, 06:01 AM

Mr Harris, it amazes me that so many years into the home theatre explosion and the continual raising of the bar for what is acceptable on a home video product that Rank et al haven't manufactured a better quality 65mm film scanner in recent years...is it just due to the cost and sale-ability of said item, due to the low number of original 65mm features, or is there some technical reason behind this?

BTW Tunbridge Wells is approx an hour's drive from me, and well worth a visit!

Regards

M

Joe Caps · 09-16-2005, 07:37 AM

AAAAH. I like the picture on the new Ben Hur. by Far the best picture quality we have had for this title.
The sound is another mater, not just the pulling in of the dialgue toward the center, but the bad remixing from the raw tracks. The high end seems to be gone, the bass artificially pumped up. Horrifying.

Cassy_w · 09-16-2005, 08:14 AM

RAH is the man. May I have your children, sir?

Robert Harris · 09-16-2005, 08:25 AM

To Mr. Anthony...

How many roundabouts between you and TW? I've never been able to get the hang of them whilst sitting on the wrong side of the car and driving on the wrong side of the road.

To Cassy_w...

Is this an offer to take over tuition payments?

Mark Anthony · 09-16-2005, 08:45 AM

Fortunately there is a good stretch of motorway between Hertfordshire and Kent, perfect for giving the Aston Martin or Bentley a work-out! Although those r-a-b's are a pain even to us locals, as there's probably at least 20 to endure over that stretch!

On a side-issue Mr Harris, have you been involved at all in supervising or approving the new anamorphic transfer of Vertigo thats appearing in the Universal Hitchcock DVD collection next month?

M

Ken_McAlinden · 09-16-2005, 09:07 AM

Quote:

I might as well compare Spider-Man 2 to Hello Dolly!

I think Barbara Streisand was horribly mis-cast as Dr. Octopus.

Wait...I might be getting them confused.

Yes New York/
It's really us/
Barnaby and/
Octavius

All the friends of Mr. Hackl are/
Feeling that Spidey's spectacular

Sorry, I just saw a production of "Hello Dolly!" in Stratford, Ontario a couple of weeks ago. I have resisted the temptation to post the lyrics for "Webbing Down My Back" and "I Put My Metallic Pincer In".

Regards,

Robert Harris · 09-16-2005, 09:39 AM

I know nothing about the new DVD of "Vertigo."

TedD · 09-16-2005, 09:47 AM

Quote:

I'm aware of no Rank or other scanners in use, and available today, which are capable of handling a large format image with high quality.

Well, here are a couple that are capable of doing 65mm at 4K resolution:

http://www.filmlight.ltd.uk/northlight.html

http://www.cintel.co.uk/docs/milleniumii.pdf

I can't say whether or not they are in use in Hollywood or not, however. It looks like the northlight is not, however.

Ted

Steve Tannehill · 09-16-2005, 10:11 AM

Thanks for your remarks, Mr. Harris!

Shortly after your Lawrence restoration came out, the one nice AMC theater in Dallas at the time had a series of 70mm screenings of MGM classics, including 2001, Doctor Zhivago, West Side Story, and Ben Hur. Words can not fully describe what it is like to see those movies on a big screen--especially the Chariot Race sequence in Ben Hur. The movie Gladiator pales in comparison.

Thanks again,

- Steve

Will Ryan · 09-16-2005, 10:45 AM

Turner Entertainment's Richard May and staff has done a great job on this restoration of Ben-Hur. Please take a bow.

DaViD Boulet · 09-16-2005, 10:54 AM

RAH,

your post was exactly what I wanted to read...it informed us tremendously about the nature of the film elements and the process of film-tape transfering.

One comment you made leaves me quite concerned:

Quote:

If one scans large format, one can end up with a nicely rendered, but imperfect image, normally with less detail than can be reproduced from 35mm. This image will generally appear softer than a like image based upon the same scene photographed on 35mm 4 perf.

I knew this was the case some time ago (I believe is paritally why the Vertigo transfer wasn't 16x9) but I had hoped someone had developed equipment to solve the problem.

My concern is that if the problem of image softness and loss of resolution (among a few other problems) with large-format film elements is inerehent in the process of film-tape transfering given current technology limitiations (that are not as problematic with transfering from 35mm), then that's quite alarming!

It means that even an 1920 x 1080 uncompressed HD transfer would be subject to the same compromises.

I'm well aware that digital media, even at the 1920 x 1080 level, cannot capture all the visual information and color purity of the native 65mm print. But to be further compromised by excessive softening and obscuring of fine detail isn't acceptable in the long run. Is anyone doing work to develop equipment so that large-format film media can be transfered to digital with a minimum of loss???

It seems a sad irony that a 1920 x 1080 transfer from a 70mm source would look inferior to the same transfer made from a 35mm print of the same film!

p.s. is this also the reason that the Hello Dolly DVD looks slighty softened to my eyes? (was it a large-format transfer as well?)

John Hodson · 09-16-2005, 11:33 AM

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