Need advice on bi-amping

SHS · 02-15-2008, 08:50 PM

I have a Denon AVR 587 connected to Paradigm Monitor System 7's with the cc370 and mini monitors for surrounds. I have the SVS PB-13 Ultra for a sub and I am ecstatic at the performance especially with HT but I do know my weak link is my Denon.

I am looking at upgrading the AVR in less than a year(or so) and have been considering a Pre-Pro and bi-amping the fronts(7's).

The pre-pro with dual amps is a bit pricey in any brand I have seen.

A couple of questions rise though.

1) Will I notice an appreciable difference over bi-amping compared to a higher quality AVR like the Denon 3808?
2) What would I notice, more midrange punch, greater clarity, cleaner reproduction of music?

I am thrilled with my HT output and performance but can't help but wonder if my music listening could be enhanced. I have a Toshiba HD DVD which is connected via optical to my Denon but sans HDMI on it. Also, I have HD Direct TV and enjoy XM radio with it. I would appreciate opinions because I really don't see spending $6-$10k on a pre-pro and bi-amping, at least not yet. I do not own any SACD or high quality recordings right now, but I might in the future.

3) Is it possible to get good quality in bi-amping and pre-pro with HDMI and the latest in digital processing for less?
4) If so, what systems/setups do you recommend? What systems do I avoid?

I am leaning toward an AVR like the Denon 3808 as you can see above(~$1600) but appreciate learning about the advantages of other options.....teach me I am all ears.....errr....eyes, you get it right?

Noob here but learning!! This bi-amping has intrigued me. I would think I would hear benefits from it but I realize I am not at anywhere near the top of the line equipment. So, give it up....

pink · 02-15-2008, 10:35 PM

WELL, TO START OFF WITH BI-AMPING IS THE WAY TO GO. FORGET ABOUT ANOTHER RECEIVER, MY OPINION IT'S A WASTE OF MONEY. RECEIVERS JUST DON'T HAVE THE POWER SUPPLIES AS SEPERATES DO. IF YOU UPGRADE YOUR DENON WHAT DO HAVE A FEW MORE WATTS. I LISTEND TO A DENON WITH 140 WATTSx7 AND I HAVE TO TELL YOU TO ME IT'S A JOKE, TO SPEND THAT KIND OF MONEY FOR THAT. I STARTED WITH BI-AMPING MY CENTER WITH 350 WATTS FOR TOP AND BOTTOM AND IT'S LIKE OPENING A WHOLE NEW WINDOW IN SOUND AND NOW MY WHOLE SYSTEM IS BI-AMPED COSTLY BUT WELL WORTH IT, IT'S AMAZING WHAT SPEAKERS SOUND LIKE WHEN YOU BI-AMP, AND ANOTHER GREAT IMPROVEMENT YOU CAN MAKE AND IT'S NOT VERY COSTLY IS RUN 10 GAUGE WIRE, YOU WOULD NOT BELIVE THE DIFFERENCE IN SOUND GOOD WIRING MAKES. GOOD LUCK-YOU ALREADY WASTED YOUR MONEY ON A RECEIVER DON'T WASTE IT ON ANOTHER ONE.
BUT IF YOU DO DECIDE TO UPGRADE YOUR RECEIVER GET AT LEAST A B&K DON'T GO SIDEWAYS GO UP. TO MANY PEOPLE SPEND A LOT OF MONEY GOING SIDEWAYS WHEN THEY THINK THEY'RE UPGRADING BUT THEY'RE NOT THEY JUST WASTE A LOT OF MONEY BECAUSE THEY JUST DON'T DO IT RIGHT.

Jeff Gatie · 02-15-2008, 10:52 PM

Pink, please lose the caps. It is considered shouting and thus can be very rude. Thanks.

To the OP, I've never believed the hype about bi-amping. JMHO.

MotoGeek · 02-15-2008, 11:11 PM

I don't think bi amping would be worthwhile. You'd need to tear apart your speakers to bypass their crossovers, then buy more amps to provide an additional channel per speaker, then get an active crossover and figure out the proper settings for it. You're essentially undoing a lot of work that Paradigm did when they designed the speaker.

You're better off simply getting a more powerful AVR. Better yet, if you're not hung up on aesthetics, go with 4 separate amps and use your existing Denon as the pre-amp (if it's capable of that). You could pick up 2 Crown XLS 402s for your fronts and 2 XLS 202s for the surrounds all for about $700 on ebay. Hit up craigslist and you can probably do even better.

New amp is making me grin from ear to ear =) - AVS Forum

SHS · 02-15-2008, 11:56 PM

Hmmm, now that is what I'd call diverse replies....

Ok,

#1 the paradigms I'd bi-amp are already wired for that, so no disecting them. I would not bi-amp the center or surrounds, as I mentioned I am happy with my HT sound.
The bi-amping would be more for two channel music while using the sub as well.
#2 the crown route still does not give me HD audio, so I see no real advantage except that I'd be able to bi-amp the fronts with a clean good sound....c'mon 300+ watts. Get real. I do not want to pop the suckers just get clean and hopefully better sound. Yes I know, I do not want to max the amps but for real what do I want with 120+db of sound, it is not me.
#3 and I think I am leaning this way, the upgrade to the AVR seems to be the most bang for the buck.

More replies would be welcome.

**HTF Ads**

MotoGeek · 02-16-2008, 03:37 AM

#1) Oh, I didn't realize they were pre wired for it. That's actually pretty cool. What would you use for a crossover?

2) I'm still new to this stuff, but I thought the general rule of thumb is that you wanted 2X your speakers rated power on tap. From what I've read, you're more likely to damage your speakers with your 70W receiver, than you are with an oversized amp.

JohnRice · 02-16-2008, 03:40 AM

Scott, I'm more with Jeff on this one. Does the 587 have pre-amp outputs for the L/R channels? If it does, I would try a good, solid power amp for the L/R and possibly center first. I don't think there is that much to gain by bi-amping and tend to think you are better off putting that extra money into a better single amp than spreading it over extra channels of power to bi-amp. There are plenty of great amps to look into.

Congrats again on the 13 Ultra.

BTW James, with speakers wired for bi-amping you are still using their internal crossovers. They have 4 inputs instead of 2. You have to use 2 identical amps.

pink · 02-16-2008, 07:41 AM

sorry about the caps

pink · 02-16-2008, 07:48 AM

Why don't you try to borrow some amps before you dump more money in your system and then you'll see if it's worth to you. The denon receiver has a decent processor. Besides the speakers you have are excellent.

SHS · 02-16-2008, 08:58 AM

Great ideas guys, thanks.

John, I'm not sure if these qualify as audio pre-amp outs?
I know they send line level signals to the devices but I'm not sure if they qualify as a pre-amp signal.
pre.jpg

If they do then I would attach the left and right out to the left and right channel respectively to an amp....I think? I know that this is one of the lowest end Denon AVR's out there but I've had it for over a year and it has performed flawlesly and with what I considered a very pleasing upgrade to what I had before. It is however, just a step on the upgrade ladder.

I am a little confused how the signal would be "only" the L/R front channel signal so maybe this is not the pre-amp out I would need.....hmmm, teach me guys.

"Congrats again on the 13 Ultra."...thanks again John.

EDIT: Sorry for the premature questions.....I used a little of my effort to find out what preamp outs look like. It looks like my AVR does not have the capability.

MotoGeek · 02-16-2008, 11:38 AM

Quote:

BTW James, with speakers wired for bi-amping you are still using their internal crossovers. They have 4 inputs instead of 2. You have to use 2 identical amps.

I take it that each speaker has to have two separate crossovers? That seems horribly inefficient, since you'd be amplifying two full range signals, then throwing away half of each. I obviously know nothing about these speakers, so I must be missing something.

Quote:

Why don't you try to borrow some amps

It doesn't sound like you're keen on pro audio amps, but if you just wanted to experiment, these can be rented from local music stores such as Guitar Center.