Ted Pugh

Denon vs. seperates Question?

am curious here on everyones response. I sold my speakers to a buddy of mine who happened to buy my 4802 about a year ago. At the same time he was interested in purchasing my Aragon Stage One pre/pro and B&K 200.5 amp so I transported them to his house and we hooked them up and to both of our surprise the Denon sounded better than the seperates in his room with SACD and DVD Audio as well as Dolby Digital. To say the least he did not buy the seperates from me and he kept the Denon.

This got me to thinking and I was wondering if I could get some input and feedback. Does anyone think that the 5805 or soon to be released 4805 with the Denon 3910 or soon to be released 5910 with the all digital hookup as well as the auto eq/auto cal would sound better than mid fi seperates like the Aragon, B&K, Parasound, Rotel etc. or am I crazy and should just stick to seperates.

I building a new house with a dedicated 22X16 theater and will need to purchase this equipment in late January, early February. I do plan on auditioning as much equipment as possible but in my hometown there is only Denon, Rotel, Aragon, Krell so an in home audition is almost impossible.

Sorry for the long post and everyone have a Merry Christmas and a safe holiday season.

Mort Corey

A lot would depend on the power requirements of whatever speakers you end up purchasing. From what I've read so far, the Denon 5805 outputs pretty darn close to what they advertise and you'd have the latest and best DAC's available in a receiver (and I'd venture to guess better than many pre-pros). That said, I've also read rumors that Denon is going to start offering separates in the near future so it might be worth waiting to see what their offering turns out to be....could be the best of both worlds.

Mort

Robert_Dufresne

Ted

When you get into the flagship models from Denon, they will compare favorably to midfi seperates.

\"and if my grand-mother had wheels she\'d be a wagon\" Montgomery Scott Eng. USS Enterprise

Arthur S

>>>soon to be released Denon 4805<<<

What can you tell us about this receiver?

Thanks

Artie

Shane Martin

Anything right now is speculation unless someone got more reliable information. I haven't seen a confirmation yet that they are actually releasing a 4805. I hope so because if they include what I think they will, I'll be all over it.

Ted Pugh

Over at another forum there is a thread concerning the 4805 and it was confirmed by the rep with Audessy (not sure about the spelling) that the 4805 will have the same Auto EQ/Auto Cal as the 5805. Also mentioned that the 4805 will be shipping in early 1st quarter 2005. I beleive that thee 4805 is pretty darn close to the 5805 except with only 7 channels for amps with 135-145 watts of power. I will try to find this link and post it here.

Ted Pugh

I am really curious why a Denon 5805 vs. seperates would not sound just as good or better. They have the most up to date top of the line DAC's and DSP engines that the high end seperates do not have plus the auto eq/auto cal.
What gives? Is it just audiophile people have an elitist attitude that seperates just sound better? How many people in a true blind test could tell the difference?

Paul S

Is it just audiophile people have an elitist attitude that seperates just sound better? How many people in a true blind test could tell the difference?

In a single word: NONE

No one to date has been able to tell the difference between amps on highly controlled double blind tests. Many will say they can but when those golden ears are put to the tests they all fail miserably.

Elinor

>"No one to date has been able to tell the difference between amps on highly controlled double blind tests. Many will say they can but when those golden ears are put to the tests they all fail miserably."

Yes, the "highly controlled" nature of the tests may have something to do with that.

Now, I don't have golden ears, and I doubt I could tell the difference between 2 similarly priced amps of similar design.

But there is simply no doubt that there are design differences between receivers and high end amps. This is what drives people to upgrade. "My setup just doesn't sound good." Most mediocre lower-powered receivers will just poop out (or worse, clip) on really demanding material. I have some organ music that would have many receivers blowing tweeters and drivers left and right. Separate amps (mine, for example, is a 3-channel unit with separate torroidal transformers for each channel, and enough capacitance to continue playing for a good 30 seconds after I turn them off) are designed for the most demanding use. Receivers seem to be designed for general use, and they show their limitations on demanding material.

Plus, pointing out that amps can't be distinguished in blind tests is only looking at part of the equation. Pre/pros in the $3-5k range and beyond, mated with competent amps, are going to just blow away anything any receiver can do. You could be blind AND DEAF and hear the difference.

It's not just a matter of DACS and DSPs, although I can assure you that no receiver uses the same DACs as, say, a Theta Casablanca III with Extreme DACs. There are many other design elements that are employed in these high end units that are not in receivers. (And if I were more technically savvy, I could enumerate them ... but alas, you'll have to do your own research and reading to find this out).

Paul S

Elinor why don't you take the $10,000 challenge? I have posted general information for it below. You should be able to tell your superior amp from a Radio Shack every time, right?

For some interesting info about the sound of amps I suggest emailing Richard Clarke - a2000rich@aol.com. He runs the $10,000 AMP challenge. You can request the stats from him.

About the challenge…

There is a contest that pays 10 GRAND to anyone who can correctly identify one amp from another 24 out of 24 times in a blind test.

Although the rules were originally written for car amps the person running the contest has opened the challenge up to home theater amps.

Basically here’s how it works:
Take ANY two amps (Amp 1 and Amp 2).

The amps are tested to find their linear range (i.e. where they operate w/o distortion or clipping).

The linear range of the less powerful amp is selected (so that 10-watt tube amp isn’t driven into clipping while going up against the $10,000 SS amp)

Adjustments are made for the input sensitivity of each amp.

If necessary, the amps are EQ’ed to sound the same, apparently some amp makers boost/cut certain frequencies to give their amp a distinctive sound.

The person taking the challenge decides which amp gets EQ’ed. Yes, you can take a working flea market find, have it EQ'ed, and compare it to a Halcro.

The person taking the contest listens to ANY music they want for however long they want, but the guy running the contest requests that they keep it limited to a few hours.

The person taking the contest can use ANY available commercial speakers; as long as the speakers use cones and the amps being tested can power them.

There will be 2 listening sessions of 24 trials. If anyone can tell the two amps apart 100% of the time, they walk away with $10,000.Above you’ll find the email addy of the guy running the contest. Please contact him for the official rules.BTW – No one has won as of yet. I’d think that anyone who can hear the difference between a $5000 amp and a $10,000 amp at sane listening levels would be all over this. They could compare a $15,000 amp vs. a Radio Shack special and walk away with the cash.

Why don't you give it a shot Elinor, I should think you would be able to tell your super amp from a Radio Shack. Think of it, you could be the first person on the planet able to tell the difference between amps if you win. Such bragging rights alone would be worth the trip.

If you want more information on the challenge, simply go to www.audioholics.com and do a search for $10,000 then click on a thread for smplifier sound.

Scott_N

How would you EQ a cheap SS amp to sound like my Thor Audio TPA-30 tube amps? Most of these tests always want the EQ or alter in some way the expensive amp. Are you also going to say a receiver will play as loud and as cleanly without compression in demanding action sequences as a high power SS amp? I don't have to do any tests i've compared my Marantz SR-18 to Theta separates and it couldn't handle the beach landing in Private Ryan at the same volume levels as the Theta and that's a fact and it's THX Ultra rated. Quality separate amps have better power supplies than receivers period.

Paul S

The following is an excerp from a Mas