Nathan Stohler

"bright" and "warm" receivers

I've been having a "discussion" with a gentleman on another forum, and I was wondering if some of you experts can weigh in before I make more of an ass of myself.

Someone asked for suggestions for a receiver to go with his speakers. This other guy replied and said that one of the receivers was too "bright," and since he already had bright speakers, it would sound like "glass breaking".

This got me thinking. If a receiver was truly "bright", "warm", laid-back", etc., wouldn't this be reflected in the THD rating? In other words, if a receiver is "bright", doesn't that mean that the output differs from the original source, and hence it is distortion?

I've just gotten into the habit of ignoring peoples' opinions of bright/warm when it comes to receivers since it's so subjective and they're making that judgement using their own speakers and listening area.

Thanks.
--Nathan

imported_Brian L

I'm with you on this, Nathan.

If any device that passes a signal (with or without apmlifying it) had that sort of charateristic, I would consider it either broken or at the very least, an intentional tone control.

Take a look at this thread for a similar discussion on the term "musical".

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htfo...hreadid=216993

My personal opinion is that a recording can be bright, dark, warm, polite, brash, or any number of terms to describe its sound. Same applies to a loudspeaker. If anything between the recording and the loudspeaker has any of those charateristics, its either not working right or at the least has some flaws.

IMHO, YMMV, AFAIC.......

BGL

Bob_M

I agree too. I don't think the design teams at Yamaha sit down and say, "Let's design a receiver that is bright". I am sure the main goal of every design team is to be as neutral as possible, but I could be wrong.

Bob

John Garcia

Amps DEFINITELY have a sound to them, as do DACs and DSPs. A given combination of all of these will give a receiver a certain characteristic presentation. IMO the characteristics many apply to a given brand stems mostly from the DACs rather than the actual amps, but the amps are also a factor. I doubt if you asked Yamaha's engineers if they characterize their receivers as "bright" they would say "accurate, not bright". It is not the intention to create a bright receiver, but rather the particular sound it makes is a function and result of their design philosophy.

The combination of certain receivers with certain speakers CAN result in notceable variations in sound.

"The trouble with the world is not that people know too little, but that they know so many things that ain't so." - Mark Twain

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Bedroom: Marantz PM-7200 Integrated, GR Research A/V-1s, Sony 222ES SACD, RC3200 remote, Panamax M8EX

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Nathan Stohler

John,

For the sake of argument, I am suspending my beliefs and assuming for the moment that each amp does have its own unique sound. If an amp is considered to be bright, I'm wondering if that deviation from the source material is reflected in the distortion (THD) rating.

It seems to me that it should be since software determines THD and doesn't care whether the receiver is bright or laid-back; it only quantifies how different the output wave form is from the input signal.

I haven't been able to find enough information on how THD is computed, so I don't whether this is the case or not. It's possible that I have the wrong idea about what THD means.

Thanks again.
--Nathan

imported_Brian L

I guess I am OK with the notion that certain amps (or receivers) driving certain speakers may have a "sound", but I would attribute that to either a weird load characteristic of the loudspeaker, and/or the amps inability to cope with that load.

Both issue represent, to me a flaw in the design of one or the other.

And while I will probably regret bringing this up, when was the last time you read a published test result of any modern solid state amp that did NOT measure almost dead-nuts flat from 20 to 20K (usually a lot higher than that, actually).

Side note: John, cool link. I have been to a few indoor karting centers overseas (Brazil, Argentina, Australia, France) and those places are a blast. unfortunately, the South Americans are just born and bred to drive these things. The best I was ever able to muster was a second place!

BGL

Nathan Stohler

Brian,

I was making things too difficult. I guess you don't need to make any deductions from the THD figure; you can just look at the frequency response (as you were mentioning). For instance, my Pioneer receiver is within 3 dB for 20 hZ - 100 kHz and my old Sony was within 2.5 dB for 10 hZ - 70 kHz.

--Nathan

Bob_M

>test result of any modern solid state amp that did NOT measure almost dead-nuts flat from 20 to 20K (usually a lot higher than that, actually).<

All the lab results I have read from S&V are dead-nuts like you say on a sweep. At what power levels do they do that sweep? How can they be so perfect when noise levels are not? Does that mean they subtract out the excess noise when calculating the frequency response? As Nathan asked, how does THD come into play?

Bob

John Garcia

LOL. When the pro races come to our area, they often drop in at Speedring, and it's like watching magic. It's hard to believe these are the same karts everyone else is driving They modeled the place after a karting place in Belgium I believe, and brought the karts from overseas. My friends started the place, so I used to hang out there a lot (and worked as a kart mechanic part time to help out when they first started)

I don't think the amp itself really imparts so much to the sound in terms of electronics, but rather how much current it is capable of and how it handles impedance changes will affect how it sounds with certain speakers, particularly if it is paired up with speakers that push the amp's limits.

To me the DACs impart much more of the characteristic sound for a brand than anything else. There is a noticable difference between my SACD player's DACs and my receiver's DACs.


Those flaws are inherent and it is those flaws that give character to each component. That character may or may not be desireable for each person.

"The trouble with the world is not that people know too little, but that they know so many things that ain't so." - Mark Twain

HT: Marantz SR-8300, MA500 monoblocks x 2, 5X GR Research A/V-2s, Adire Audio Tempest sub, Denon 2900, Oppo 980H, Toshiba HD-A2, RC2000MkII remote, Panamax 5100, Panamax Max2 sub, Slim PS2, PS3 60G + 320G USB

Bedroom: Marantz PM-7200 Integrated, GR Research A/V-1s, Sony 222ES SACD, RC3200 remote, Panamax M8EX

Audio: Audioquest * Video: Bluejeans

My DVDs My HT

Chu Gai