Paul Fa

After reading the thread about the Denon 3803 being available online for under $650 shipped, and since I am considering getting Paradigm speakers which have no online buying option, I thought I would go back to a well respected B&M in the local area to see what the extra money I would spend there would buy me. 1st the set-up:

24x24 room w/high open beam ceilings, carpet, 12x8 opening on one side wall, windows on the other, w/ couch in middle of the room facing HTS on front wall.

AVR: Denon 3803/Pioneer 45-5x/Yamaha 2400
Speakers: Paradigm Monitor 9/11 mains, cc370 center and maybe Monitor 3 rears and ps1200 sub - OR - Axiom Epic 80 system.

Here's the results of my evening:

1. Service: Free pre-sale talk/listening, some help with placement ideas, don't really want to let you demo equip at home, installation help only for extra fees ($30-60/hr), would help with spl'ing after install (me or them), and no migration/upgrade path/program.

2. Products: Claimed that previous problems with Denon receivers (3802 etc. ?) caused them to drop them, wouldn't/couldn't discuss merits of Pioneer since they don't carry - likewise with Axiom, said they wouldn't advise anyone to buy from "an internet only company that couldn't get anyone to carry their gear - doesn't that tell you something? There's lots of people buying equipment and assembling speakers in some warehouse!". They then suggested that Paradigm-wise I get into the Studio line with 20's for mains, cc 570 center and (non timbre matched) mini's for rears + sub - saying "you'll be amazed at the difference and the sub will make up for the lack of full range mains". When I wanted to hear this and wasn't that impressed, they blamed it on a poor dts demo DVD.

The upshot appears to be that although I would like to support my local B&M, there just may be way to many people out here with so much more money laying around that unless you're willing to lay out $10-50k for a system, you don't get the extra service some of you in other areas are getting. The same happens at the car dealerships in the LA area. Now maybe I'm considering just buying both the Denon and the Axioms online and doing all the rest myself. BTW, on my motorcycle online board, locals get together to help each other out and socialize/ride - would some of you out there like to start some local groups get-togethers to do the same with HTS? I'll pony up the beer to get things rolling here in the SFV/LA area!

John S

The biggest thing I have found anymore, is there is no such thing as exprtise at any B&M stores anymore, whatsoever. Even higher end ones.

It has been more than 10 years since I have held a decent intellegent conversation with any employee of any home / professional electronics retailer.

And my recent trips concerning my upgrade to HDTV has only solidified my feelings on them. So much so, I even bought that online, something I initialy said I would not do.

PS: I think there are HT groups in the LA area.. Do a search see what you come up with.

PaulT

I don't think you can wash out the B&M stores based on one poor salesman (crap salesman, actually, from your comments).

In my experience the local Big Box stores have young kids working there who generally don't have a clue.

In my area at the 'Mom & Pop' or smaller retail outlets, I have dealt with a few salesman who are not only knowledgeable, but willing to let me test drive gear at home, provide after sales service, don't sh*t on equipment you are looking for if they don't carry it, and have been more than willing to cut their prices to make sales. Listening Rooms are set up for various levels of price range, and they are more than happy to haul other gear in and out to let you hear what you are considering to buy.

In 2 of the shops I have had full run of the listening rooms for as long as required with test CD'd and DVD's and SPL meter in hand. The one store I have not yet purchased anything in, so it is not a case of me spending big bucks to get good service.

Perhaps I am lucky to live in a small area (the 'city' I live in has 50 thousand people, and the next 'city' 30 miles away I do business in has 100 thousand).

"One of the problems of taking things apart and seeing how they work--supposing you're trying to find out how a cat works--you take that cat apart to see how it works, what you've got in your hands is a non-working cat." -- Douglas Adams

Ernest Yee

His arguments on that equipment is just ridiculous. The Denon is a well respected unit - just as the Pioneer. His argument over the Axiom is just ridiculous b/c their business model is just to be an online online retailer to skip out on the middleman costs - such as your uninformed dealer.

Mike Veroukis

I wouldn't base my opinion on that class of store from just one visit. I've been to many different stores. Some are great, some are wieird and bizzare, others are just down right bad. I would imagine that we could easily collect a long list of on-line purchase horror stories as well.

- Mike

every artist is a cannibal, every poet is a thief
all kill their inspiration and sing about their grief! - The Fly, U2

BrianTIR

My biggest problem with the whole B&M store is the Manufacturer's telling us that we can only buy from them, that they offer excellent service and are approved to sell their great items and so on. When you finally arrive at the store if it's a good one, all is well but if it's not...
Even if the store has snotty salesman at least have a good area for demonstrations and actual equipment in stock.

My personal pet peeves with B&M stores:

"We used to sell that line but we had to drop them to major quality issues" When saying you looked at brand that store doesn't sell it's always they dropped that line due to major problems with it. That could be true but it also could be true that the manufacturer dropped them or the store just choose not to carry that line for other reasons.

"The brand is good but you really should go for this, it's so much better" When the salesman seems overly enthustiastic about a certain manufacturer's line of goods even though the store sells others. Sometimes it could be true, other times it's probably due to a bit more comission from the sale, but usually it just seems the guy's trying to convert you to what he thinks regardless of the truth.

"No we don't have any of the new models in since we haven't sold out of last years model yet" Boy great so I can't hear the new models until the old ones sell out?

"No we don't have any of last year models setup so you can at least listen to them" This speaks for itself.

Marty M

I have had some bad experiences at one local store that I will not purchase from anymore. They had a serious issue of staff training and their knowledge was not any better than at Best Buy.

At another store I have had nothing but great service. Yes they will tell you the virtues of the equipment they sell, but don't "bad mouth" the competition. This is going to happen everywhere, whether you buy locally or on the internet.

Lawn Ranger Motto: You're only young once, but you can be always be immature.

JackS

If you know what you want and are ready to buy, ask if there any salesmen who own the receiver you are interested in. This may take a little luck but it can lead to some very livly and informative conversation. Personally I feel receivers nowa-days are a little to complicated to expect all sales persons to have a full understanding of major and minor differences between brands. Do your own research and form a few opinions of your own before hand. Opinions by sales people can be honest or dishonest, informed or un-informed, objective, subjective and even intentionly mis-leading. Trust your self to make decisions, not them to make decisions for you. If I make a mistake on a purchase, I will live with it and learn. If someone else makes a decision for me and it turns out bad, thats a bitter pill to swallow.

Jonty Rees

I wouldn't be too hard on those B&M salesmen - they're just trying to make a crust. Let's face it, they get paid next to nothing, and if they were more capable, they would most likely be in a better job. (No offence to any capable, conscientious hifi salesmen out there). Add to this the problem of people coming in, demo'ing like crazy and then ordering off the web, and you have a recipe for disappointment. I guess it's just a matter of expectations.

Dan Halchak

I think it all depends on the people that own and run the store...

I bought my B&Ws from a B&M (DM604s3, LCR600s3, DM602s3, DM601s3). I originally went between 2 stores until I felt comfortable buying from one of them. The one I went with was 24 miles further than the closer one. But what really sold me was the guy I worked with. He was very nice and decently knowledgeable. We demoed both Paradigm & the B&Ws and I chose what I chose. The best part of it, was he wasn't trying to force me to buy anything and kept saying that once you get them at home (he thought) either series I picked up I'd be pleased with. I definitely respected the guy when I told him I was getting the SVS PCi 20-39 and he said that it's a great subwoofer and for what they carried, he wouldn't try to sell me one (and couldn't match the price per peformance) with the models he carried. So right there when he basically flat out said, "you know what you're doing and what you're looking for, and we won't try to say you're wrong, but help you get what you want." I was sold. He said that he would demo both lines in my home, but they require a sale afterwards or I had to pay a fee (Can't remember what the cost was). I told him there was no need I already knew what both sets (paradigm & B&W) sounded like at friend's houses. He also (not that big of a deal) but hooked me up with over 100ft. of Monster Cable 12guage) for free - since I was buying the whole set 7.1 setu