Jeff D.

What attitude is that? To give the B&M's a fair chance, at least check them out with an open mind. Or is it good B&M's that encourage purchasing products based on how they _sound_, not simply because they are on sale this week?

If you take the time to re-read, I did NOT say that NAD is the end-all and be-all. I simply said that they are making quality products as they have done for 20 years and that, in my opinion, they offer a higher-quality product.

I'm not going to criticise your choice of a Denon - they also make good products. And with proper system matching (as with any product) they might even rival NAD in some quarters.

Your attitude sounds like the typical online fanboy, who never even gives the B&M's a fair chance, because to you the online world is the end-all and be-all.

Your lack of support of your local community (and this applies not just to electronics, but any and all industries) will only do you irreperable harm in the future.

Lewis Besze

You're surely missed Jeff! No I don't! .....and to controll prices. Very true! Just as idiotic to expect to buy anything from people with attitude like yours. Check out: www.yawaonline.com You mean like NAD fanboys? Or is it Marantz?
You think?

Paul Fa

Ok, Ok, since I started this mess, maybe it's time for me to chime back in. I never intended this little rant to colorize all B&M's as poor choices, only to let people in areas that have good ones to realize how lucky they are! Please people, the world is already too polarized these days, where a simple statement of disagreement with anything from Presidential decisions to illegal immigration leads to people branding each other as 'Traitors' and 'Racists'. Let's not go down that road here in a great ideas sharing vehice like this forum, let's agree to disagree and enjoy the differences rather than try to convert/denigrate others.

I did go back and give that same B&M another chance with a different salesman - he was a little better, but their policies about service remain the same. Basically, unless you're one the megabucks entertainment crowd looking to add a 30 person 20' wide screening room with $5000 chairs etc. you are going to have to pay for every bit of their time - they just have too many customers that have that kind of money to spend. If there were more/better choices for me to explore in the area, I would. I believe in supporting small businesses rather than the big boxes whenever and whereever possible - but the whole reason to do so would be to get better service! There are very few small AV stores left in my area - my other choices are The Good Guys and even larger retailers - I wish from what I've heard about them on this board that we had a Tweaters in this area - they sound like a pretty good mid-sized box store. I will continue my search!

Now, back to part of my original post - can anyone give me input comparing the Axioms to the Paradigms? That is where I would decide between online vs B&M

Happy Holidays - wave and smile at someone during these hectic days just to take the edge off!!

Shane Martin

As they should be!
Unfortunately it does. Just look at the cable forum.
I've heard the Studio 40's, 60's and 100's in Version 2 along with the Monitor series. The Studios are better in every way over the Monitor series. That said I think they are a little bright in the top end for me. If you think they are bright, then the Axioms are worse. The guy who bought them(2nd hand) loves the sound though so its a matter of taste. Looks wise, the cabinets on the Paradigms look better by a fair margin(IMHO). If you ask this question on the speaker forum its likely you will get varied responses. I'm not sure you can find a Paradigm dealer willing to let you take home a demo pair but that would be the best way to compare with the Axioms if bought them(their return policy is good). It's still quite likely if you listen to a speaker anywhere but home it will sound different so I would see if you can find a home demo of both if you can.

Jeff D.

From the NAD website:



Wow, what ever happened to making an honest dollar? This is where the online boys want everything for nothing. For those B&Ms that do offer good service - installations, in-home trials, in-store comparisons etc - how the hell do you think they get paid?? Margins are there so places like this can exist.

Sit hard and think...how do you earn your money? Somewhere down the line, someone is buying a product at what you would consider an overinflated price and paying for you and your family's existence. It goes both ways. Why shouldn't these people make a living.

Bottom line: you're taking money out of your community because you're a cheap-ass.


Lewis, why don't you go out in the real world and develop some social skills. Please tell me what is so idiotic about my attitude? Explain it in words, intelligent English, not insults.


Yeah, I think Lewis. Question is, do you?



That is the biggest issue. The problem is there are some bad B&M's out there. But there are also some very good one's. As I said in my original post, of course they bad one's do not deserve support. I'm not advocating buying at a B&M that cannot offer good service. However, there are some that do, and they should be supported.

The HTF is also full of enthusiasts, and thus we have a poor conception of what good service should be. We forget that things like ISF calibration are for enthusiasts. I am not denegrating them, they are great. But what people forget is that one can still enjoy a home theater without ISF calibration. The problem is, we walk into a B&M, and if the salesman does not know every single thing the enthusiast does, we label the salesman ignorant. It is unfair.



I would if I could, but the online fanboys spend their lives in front of a screen, they don't go out in the real world where real people are!

Lewis Besze

If you come in a place with "butt first talking out of it" what do you think happens? Just one example from your latest post: You imply many things in one sentence here in a rather unflattering way....but I'm sure you think there was nothing "wrong" with it. Social skills? I only take people's posts seriously who earned my respect.
'nough said!

Shane Morales

As with most issues, I sit on the fence with this one.

One hand: Yes, I like to save money and buying online appeals to me. My concern is MY bottomline, not the dealer's.

The other hand: I *had* to buy from a B&M store because I needed their financing. I had two to choose from: Myer Emco and Tweeter. I spent a lot of time at both stores.

Myer Emco had most of the equipment I wanted: Rotel and B&W, but I didn't really like Myer Emco. The salesman was a condescending ass; the demo rooms were setup for the super rich, not for folks like me; they hardly had any product in stock; and they were pushy. Mostly it was the sales people.

I ended buying from Tweeter because the salesman was spectaluar (see Ian at the Rockville, MD store). I would have spent about $1200 more at Myer Emco, but the service at Tweeter (Ian in particular) swayed me.

I did buy a few items online, but they were items that I had previously decided to buy online and never got any 'service' for from the dealers. In other words, I didn't waste their time. I don't feel bad for that.

I sometimes regret having had to buy from a B&M because I know I could have gotten more for my $ online. However, the great benefit of having bought at a B&M is that I went in with no preconceived notions about the equipment and basically picked out what I thought sounded the best and was in my price limit (alas, the Martin Logans were not in my price limit). I couldn't have done that online.

So I remain on the fence.

:::Shane
:::nineshadoweyes.com

JamieS

B&M is alive and well in Canada I'll say that for sure. Not becuse of service only but becuse online buying in Canada is so full of issues. Exchange rate, shipping, duty, warranty transfer issues customs the list goes on and on. I would think that B&M stores in the US would be having a much more difficult time. After all if you can buy an XYZ receiver that you have heard somewhere for 1/2 the cost of B&M you can probaly afford $100 to pay someone to set it up properly and still come out ahead.

We have 3 dealers here that I consider above Mass Market. They all have people who are more knowledgable than the average Futureshop dufus.

I have shopped and bought at all 3. The main Place I have been dealing with Laser Home theatre here in Nova Scotia is outstanding IMO. They do NOT have the very cheapest price around. They don't don't rip people off but you might save a few bucks here or there on some stuff. The reason they are so good and that I'd never pass on them for online (Unless of course there was a piece of gear I had to have but could only afford at 1/2 price online) is the experience. I have a modest system and they do a large business in custom installs that cost more than my house. But I spent hours listening to speakers with no pressure only to buy another brand. Yet when I came in months later to look at something else they rembered me and treated me just as well as someone who bought from them.

I will often drop buy just to look around and as long as the place isn't swamped a qestion of "what cool new stuff is in" is always greeted by a big grin and a demo of some type of awesome 10 K projector or something I can't afford but is super cool. When you do by a TV or something from them setup is included at no extra charge.

most of all I've NEVER been oversold.

Bill Polley

Yup, I've had bad experiences lately. Twenty years ago the same places were great...now, not so. I was criticized for lumping all B&Ms together. Well, the only ones in my area are that way, and the next nearest areas treated me just as poorly. One is an exception. Every B&M within 100 miles in any direction is what I call a rule. The original poster hit it right on the head when he said he didn't mean to flame all B&Ms, but the ones he went to only gave the time of day to people that look wealthier or are looking to spend huge sums of money. I CAN afford a lot of these products, don't neccessarily look or act like I have the funds, and definitely won't put up with a condescending ass who considers me to be a lesser customer because I walk in after work dusty, possibly a bit dirty, and definitely a bit unkept. Work in the sun on a 90 degree day, or in the rain, or on a below zero day and see what half of these clowns treat YOU like!

THIS SPACE FOR RENT!

David Judah

I'm suprised that someone who drew up a business plan for an A/V store would say this. With the exception of boutique stuff and accessories(like cable)A/V margins are anything but high. Go into the clothing or jewelry business if you want high markup.

I'm with Jeff on this one. There are two sides to every coin. There still are good stores out there with knowledgable salepeople, but alot have them have been pushed out by the WalMarts of the electronics world: Best Buy and Circuit City. Low prices on lower quality gear and lower quality service seem to be the successful business model as dictated by the consumers, so people shouldn't bitch about the lack of knowledge or service in those places. It's that way by design.

There are still some good specialty stores, and you'd be suprised, Jonty, the good salesmen(by that I mean ones who aren't just after the quick buck and who get repeat business and referrals because of their good customer service)make a very good living, even more than some professionals.

It also amazes me that some will do homework on one product, then go into an A/V store and expect the salesman, who has to have a working knowledge of 400-500 products of a variety of different types(audio, TVs, DVDs, camcorders etc...), to know all of the ins and outs of that one product. Retail sales are about features and benefits, not engineering discussions. Leave that to the manufacturers technical support department.

If everyone had to work as a salesman or waiter for one day, there would be a greater respect for what these people do. Sure there alot of bad ones out there, but there are also some very good ones too. If you find a good one, then support them, because if you don't, the only choice you're going to have at B&M stores is the low quality, low service, low knowledge business model I mentioned earlier.

DJ

Lecktor: Then how did you catch me?
Graham: You had disadvantages.
Lecktor: What disadvantages?
Graham: You're insane.