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[ Star Wars vs Lord of the Rings. ]

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Old 09-23-2004, 06:05 PM   #61 of 96
Lew Crippen
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I never read the books, but this was one of the most diappointing aspects of these films.If Gandalf is such a great wizard why was he swinging a sword during the battle scenes - where were the locasts,fog,lightning,earthquakes,fire,etc?

Even though I don’t think that any valid comparison can be made between these movies, I started playing, so I guess I’ll continue for a bit.

A major difference between the Star Wars world and Middle Earth is that in Goerge Lucas’ vision, power is overcome by equally strong power. Those without power are not able to succeed over those who are powerful.

So while Luke is shown to be a humble farm boy with aspirations, he is in fact the heir to a long, glorious tradition—one which aspires to master a power of the universe and that mastery can only be done by those who can feel and use this universal power. Now of course the mastery requires training and such—but it is a given that those who use the force for evil can only be beaten by those who also use the force—the universe of Star Wars is one where (almost) unlimited power exists and is controlled and used to achieve ends—both for good and for bad.

In Middle Earth, no such power exists (at least as a native part of that world). The ultimate construct for power was an artifact (the one ring) and it did not exist until made. And it could be undone by the destruction of the ring.

The point in Tolkien’s mythology is that great power is not required to overcome great power. In fact it is shown that wielding great power in Middle Earth is to become consumed by it—and therefore it is only by not exercising power that the destruction of great power can be achieved.



ˇTime is not my master!
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Old 09-23-2004, 06:19 PM   #62 of 96
Holadem
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Why is such fine discussion being burried in Polls?!

--
H



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Old 09-23-2004, 06:47 PM   #63 of 96
Quentin
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Why is such fine discussion being burried in Polls?!


Yeah...this IS movie conversation, yes? A lot of interesting discussion going on here. Not a simple vote. Did it get moved due to the thread title?

Back to movies!
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Old 09-23-2004, 07:14 PM   #64 of 96
Carlo Medina
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To me, as big fans of both trilogies, they do have some flaws.

To pick a "desert island" trilogy, I'd have to go with Star Wars. The original version, thank you. I won't even launch into an SE/DVD version discussion.

Why Star Wars? Many, many reasons, but here's three biggies:

1. I was so intimately familiar with LoTR (the novel) that a lot of PJ's changes don't sit well with me. Sure, I will agree that he's a better director than Lucas, heck even a better writer, but he changed an awful lot from the book that I felt DIDN'T need to be changed (and still would have made an effective, if not MORE effective, scene for his movies). The changes I felt were unnecessary include Sam's character, Faramir's character, The Ents character & portrayal, Gandalf's character and others.

2. Someone earlier said that he felt emotions "were forced upon you by LoTR [movies]". To this I agree. Subtlety is not one of Jackson's strong suits (nor is infrequent use of rotating helicopter shots to convey "vastness of landscape"--geez, lucky I don't suffer from vertigo). A lot of LoTR scenes made the point "YOU MUST FEEL THIS WAY" with its heavy handed directing. The story is strong enough on its own, just tell it, without embellishment, and the emotion will come. I kind of wish someone had hired Frank Darabont for the screenplay--he knows how to respect original source material and transcribe it onscreen.

3. Speaking of screenplay, how about Philippa "I'm Here To Correct Tolkien's Errors" Boyens?

Despite all of these misgivings I have towards LoTR, the essential story was strong enough to still get through and make these enjoyable movies. But instead of the A+ score I'd like to give films based on what I consider to be the greatest fiction novel I've ever read, these changes knock it down to a B+. Still good, but could have been so much better.

The Empire Strikes Back, to me, the closest to film perfection Hollywood has gotten since The Godfather I and II. Star Wars is an exceptional film (though I rank it just shy of ESB). And like the GF films, they are plagued by a weak[er] third act. Despite that third act, it does nothing to diminish what was sheer movie magic in the first two movies.

Unlike SW, the LoTR trilogy ends with what might be the strongest of the films (especially after the Extended Edition comes out). But nothing in the LoTR moved me as much as The Empire Strikes Back.

So I guess I'm giving SW the edge based on my love for that 2nd act (and ironically, I find the 2nd act to be the weakest in LoTR).

Both trilogies are full of "woulda" "shoulda" "coulda". If Lucas had retained the creative minds who had input in the first two movies, not repeated the Death Star conceit, and made the third film BUILD on the tone Empire set, rather than try to revert it back to a more kid-friendly version...and for goodness sakes had NOT made Leia and Luks siblings (and "ick-ifying" a great moment in Empire), they really could have gone down as The Definitive Trilogy for the ages.

Had Jackson let someone with more restraint touch the screenplay, and had directed with a less heavy hand with regards to action and emotions (I mean, jeez, Helm's Deep is like less than 10% of the written book [TTT], but is about 20% of the TTT movie!) and stayed truer to the written version of several key main characters, that could have gone down as the definitive way to transcribe a beloved book to screen.

Bottom line, I love Star Wars, and I really like LoTR. Warts and all. But if I gotta pick one, I'd pick SW original versions.

"Bring my shuttle!"

PS - I'd take my Dark Tower books and Lord of the Rings novel before either of these DVDs to my desert island, though!
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Old 09-23-2004, 07:16 PM   #65 of 96
Chuck Mayer
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Well, this is an excellent conversation.

I did want to reply to Lew that I feel his depiction of the difference between LOTR and SW to be fairly accurate.

That said, the key moment in both ESB and ROTJ occurs when the hero (Luke) rejects his power and chooses his friends or the love he bears his father. Based on that, the thematic elements are similar, though JRRT's are clearly more eloquent.

I did want to give the proper credit to SW.

Take care,
Chuck
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Old 09-23-2004, 07:36 PM   #66 of 96
Kenneth
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Well, Chuck hit my point about Luke rejecting power to win. Another point with Tolkien is his battle was a tad more epic. The people in LotR weren't just fighting an evil person or someone with evil powers they were fighting evil personified. Sauron was in essense a Luciferian figure since his mentor was Morgoth, Tolkien's equivalent of Satan. That changes your tactics somewhat, especially since Tolkien brought a lot of religious theory with him and that permeated his works.

Lucas was in essense telling the classic hero story (if you go with Joseph Campbell's take on it) and that had certain themes you are bound to. Campbell argued that it was because of that that SW hit a cord with so many and became so popular (he felt we were hungering for a return of the classic myth).

Seems like I keep arguing myself in circle by taking both sides I guess that's a problem when one is fond of both works.

Kenneth
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Old 09-23-2004, 07:36 PM   #67 of 96
Robert Anthony
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I really can't believe I'm for real, getting in a debate about STar Wars vs LOTR.

(I'll do it quick, like pulling a band aid off a raw wound)


..


...Lord of the Rings are better crafted movies in every way.


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Old 09-23-2004, 08:12 PM   #68 of 96
Chuck Mayer
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Well, this isn't really a debate...more an educated discussion and sharing of personal opinions

Take care,
Chuck
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Old 09-23-2004, 08:28 PM   #69 of 96
Ricardo C
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Quote:
3. Speaking of screenplay, how about Philippa "I'm Here To Correct Tolkien's Errors" Boyens?


Don't get me started...




Man, an hour wasted on this sig! Thanks, Toshiba! :p
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Old 09-23-2004, 11:07 PM   #70 of 96
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I stand by my assertion that New Line took a much greater risk with LOTR than did Fox with SW. Fox gambled on one film from a filmmaker with a big film success (American Graffiti) under his belt. Science fiction while not blockbuster material yet, had seen moderate success with Planet of the Apes and 2001.

New Line committed to three films that would all fail if the first failed. They entrusted these films to a director with no commercial track record to brag about (though Heavenly Creatures was an excellent film) Finally fantasy HAD NEVER succeeded at the box office since the Wizard of Oz.



\"The old that is strong does not wither, deep roots are not reached by the frost.\"
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Old 09-23-2004, 11:38 PM   #71 of 96
Angelo.M
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I have no emotional attachment to any of these films.


Ditto.

For me, both series are big, blustery, more than a bit goofy, slighty silly, sorta ham-fisted, wide-eyed spectacles--fun for a ride, and that's about it. They are more alike than disparate in my mind, the only substantial difference being that one entertained me as a child, the other as an adult. Neither has had any lasting resonance for me.

Quote:
To pick a "desert island" trilogy, I'd have to go with...

Easy: Blue, White and Red, or the Samurai Triology.



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