[GregBe]

It is my understanding that there are some serious bass management issues with DVD Audio. I have my sub hooked up to my main channels along with satellite speakers through the speaker level inputs, so in essence I have full range main speakers down to 24Hz. I have a small center channel and small surrounds that aren't capable of anything less than 80 Hz (and probably not more that 100 Hz at a good db level). My JVC DVD changer is DVD-Audio capable, and I already have 6 good Monster cables that I am not using. Are DVD-Audio mixed in multichannel to support this type of system, or is there sub 80Hz bass outside of the main channels?
If not, can you listen to DVD-Audio in stereo mode, and if so is 2 channel stereo mode not as good as multichannel, or is that preferable to some?
Thanks
Greg

[Phil A]

You may want to post this in the Audio/Video sources area oe ask for it to be moved there. Your DVD-A player will have setting for the speakers hook to it. Since your set-up (if I correctly understand) has the sub set-up from the amp speaker terminals then for purposes of the player you have no sub. There may be bass management in your player which could work well small speakers. I would recommned you connect the sub via the (RCA) sub output of the receiver vs. speaker terminals assuming your player has bass management and the receiver allows for it. DVD-As can have both a stereo or multi-channel mix or just one of those. It is software depending and a matter of taste as to what someone might like.

[neil wilkes]

Bass management is generally not used in DVD-Audio, but only in DVD-Video.
How your system responds can be down to the setup in the player itself.
On the Pioneer DV565, you set up for the speakers you have, with separate options for L/R, Centre & Surrounds.
The systems with satellites & sub are usually optimixed for DVD-Video.
Also, on the DV565, you should use the analogue outputs for DVD-Audio, as you cannot get 5/6 channels of 24/96 down a digital line.
One other thing to think about is the way the player handles the higher sample rates/Bit depths too.
Most digital connections will not pass multichannel at 24 bit, and truncate down to 16 because of the copy protection. DVDA ignores this by using the analogue outs.

On a universal player, it is best to set the DVDA to use analogue outs - with the Pioneer you do not get a choice - and the DVDV to use the digital outs. And make sure that downsampling is not activated too.

Quote:

Bass management is generally not used in DVD-Audio, but only in DVD-Video.

Neil, can you clarify what you mean by this? Unless one has full range speakers at all position AND a sub, there best be some BM in the signal path somewhere.

As for GregBe's situation, I see a big problem in that most uni or DVD-A players will NOT redirect the .1 channel to the main speakers if the player is set for No Sub. As such, anything present on the .1 channel will not be redirected, and thus lost.

Greg, if you have not already done so, take a look at this FAQ http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htfo...22#post1800722 that I and a few other members put together. It may help with your situation.

BTW, most DVD-A's do have a stereo track, so you can play that out the normal L/R stereo outputs of your player. As such, you will rely on BM in the receiver, if needed.

BGL

[GregBe]

Brian,

Great post in the FAQ section. It looks as though my player does not have proper bass management and the sub cannot be direct to the mains.
2 questions
1)If I were to choose the 2 channel mix, would I still have the same problem with the LFE, or is that taken care of on a software level.
2)Maybe I will post a different thread for this one, but I will ask it here as well. I noticed that most DVD-A discs have a 5.1 Dolby Digital or DTS track on them. I am sure that this is nowhere near the quality of Hi-Rez, but is care taken on these mixes. The reason I ask, is that this may be a short term fix for multichannel music until I upgrade some hardware.
Thanks
Greg

[neil wilkes]

GregBE...
Dolby Digital and DTS are nothing to do with DVD-Audio. Period.
They are audio formats for DVD-Video, and DTS is an optional format, not compulsory. Not all players support it, and the DVD spec does not require them to.

DVD-Audio is either uncompressed PCM files, from 16/44.1 right up to 24/192 in stereo, and from 16/44.1 to 24/96 in Surround.
For the higher samplerates in multichannel, 24/88.2 or 24/96, MLP coding is mandatory or you exceed the permitted bitrate. This is a lossless compression, and merely repacks the data more efficiently, as opposed to the lossy perceptual coding of Dolby Digital or DTS.

Sorry to rant, but I really do get upset when DVD-Video is mistaken for DVD-Audio. The two are completely different animals.

EDIT - Sorry brian, I didn't see your post at first.
DVD-Audio outputs from the analogue outputs of your player. It does not use perceptual coding - Dolby Digital or DTS - and as such does not use bass management.

Quote:

1)If I were to choose the 2 channel mix, would I still have the same problem with the LFE, or is that taken care of on a software level.

Nope, you would be fine, as long as your player does not do any BM on the 2 CH track (most do not).

To be sure, set all speakers to large.The DD and DTS mixes on DVD-A can sound quite good. And using them will mean you are connected digitally to your receiver, thus its BM is in play. I would bet that your receivers BM will know what to do when you select No Sub, and thus your mains will get full range signals.

BGL

[Rich Malloy]

As I understand it, most DVD-A players still do not have a bass management function. Perhaps this is changing, but that's not necessarily a good thing.

SACD players have had bass management capabilities just about from the start. But the implementation sucks. Using it degrades sound quality.

The only good solution I've found is the Outlaw ICBM-1, an analog bass manager that can be purchased for $200-250, and which will bass manage your DVD-A or SACD sources without diminishing sound quality and with greater flexibility than most people currently have for DVD-V functions.

(A forum member, John Kotches, did an excellent review of the ICBM-1. Do an internet search.)

[GregBe]

Thanks Brian.
My receiver does handle BM correctly, so I should be able to listen to DTS and DD in multi-channel and DVD-Audio in two channel through analog inputs if the disc has a two channel option.

Neil,
I didn't mean to upset you. I do undertand the difference between DTS, Dolby Digital and DVD-Audio.
My question was, were the DTS and DD options on many DVD-Audio Discs of good quality. If so, I would then have a choice of multichannel recordings (of course at a lesser quality than DVD-Audio) or the 2 channel option in DVD-Audio. That way I could start purchasing discs now and have more choices down the road once I upgrade hardware.
Greg

Quote:

As I understand it, most DVD-A players still do not have a bass management function. Perhaps this is changing, but that's not necessarily a good thing.

I think thats outdated info, Rich. Most (but not all, of course) test reports I have read recently do show that hi-rex and uni players have BM, its just FUBAR, usually!

Neil, are we talking about BM in the mixing of the music, vs. decoding? I assure that most players I am familiar with DO have BM capability, but as I said, its usually sub-par.

BGL

[neil wilkes]

Greg - The quality of any DD/DTS mixes that nay be part of a universal DVD-A are as good as the engineer that mixed them!
The reason it bothers me to hear DTS/DD referred to as DVD-A is purely an issue of awareness. I author DVD for a living, and my biggest problem with DVD-A is that so many people think it means any DVD with music on it, and so many customers are under the impression that DVD-Audio means Dolby Digital, and high quality DVDA is DTS! I have wasted so much time explaining the difference, and trying to get people to understand that any DD/DTS section of the disc is for compatibility purposes only, and is in fact part of the Video_TS as opposed to the Audio_TS. But I'm ranting now, for which I apologise and will desist.

As for Bass management, it's implementation does vary wildly, but it simply does not apply in DVD-Audio at all. Any LFE track on my DVD-A discs is handled directly in the system, as you do not use the digital outputs in DVD-A, but instead the analogue outs from the player, and the track/channel assignment is exactly 1/1. Even downmixes are handled internally using a coefficient matrix that is part of the encoding/multiplexing process. The player simply does what it is told to by the bitstream.
Everything is totally different in DD/DTS land though. This is when Bass Management actually matters, as the system is trying to cope with wildly variable content - Movie soundtracks, music soundtracks, dialogue, the whole 9 yards worth.
And yes - most of the BM implementation is 2hd rate at best.

Quote:

As for Bass management, it's implementation does vary wildly, but it simply does not apply in DVD-Audio at all. Any LFE track on my DVD-A discs is handled directly in the system, as you do not use the digital outputs in DVD-A, but instead the analogue outs from the player, and the track/channel assignment is exactly 1/1.

Neil, I do not want to come across as contentious, but your comments require some clarification.

What you are saying about BM is fine from an authoring standpoint, but these comments are extremely confusing to someone that is trying to play back a DVD-A.

Bass management, from a play back standpoint, DOES ABSOLUTELY apply to DVD-A, SACD, and any other format that can be played back on a system that does NOT have full range speakers.

I think it is safe to say that your knowledge of authoring DVD-A exceeds most of us here, but are you saying that when you author a DVD-A, you send full range signals to all main channels, plus send low frequency content to the .1 channel?

If so, how would you expect someone to play this back satisfactorily without full range speakers at all positions?How would I handle playback of a title by Chesky that is mixed 4.0, if I have a 5.1 system with main channels that are only good down to 80 Hz?

Without BM, I am going to be missing a portion of the music, would you not agree?

I am not sure if part of the confusion here is that we are perhaps not defining the term Bass Management in the same way.

I would define it as a method used during playback, to redirect low frequency content from channels that can not handle it, to channels that can (normally a sub, but other combinations can also apply, such as large mains with small surrounds and/or center).

Is that not what you would consider bass management?

Taken out of context, your statement that BM does not apply to DVD-A is contrary to what most folks with sub/sat system would say is true.

BGL