James Morrow

As modern PCs have hard drives of hundreds of gigabytes, 17.04GB recordable DVDs [DVD18s] would be significantly more desirable than 8.52GB DVDs. Additional data layer stamping processes would increase but not double costs - however, yield problems have been reported in the past, and these would easily double costs. I would tend to define yield problems for something as well developed as DVD as a manufacturing difficulty.

Computers need real 'space' on which to store data, for which 50GB will always beat 30GB. Dual-layer 50GB Bu-ray can adopt a more efficient codec than MPeg2 to record more video (ignoring lossless high resolution audio for now). Dual-layer 30GB HD-DVD adopts more efficient codecs than MPeg2 out of necessity, and so have no way of further increasing 'capacity' except by going double-sided - which depends on using DVD18 technology. Quad-layer 100GB Blu-ray can also go double-sided to produce a 200GB disc - great for computer and video-server applications...

Blu-ray involves more than just Sony, and Toshiba are on record as saying that AOD [HD-DVD] is a stepping-stone on the way to Blu-ray. An obsolete codec can be replaced; an obsolete disc structure you're stuck with. The whole point of Blu-ray is that it offers the best performance commercially available with a blue-violet laser, with a roadmap to much higher performance in the future. AOD's roadmap stops at 60GB double-sided and switches to Blu-ray...

First generation machines often do become obsolete - that's a risk one always takes in coming first, let alone more than a year before any sign of the opposition... A quad-layer (single-sided) minidisc-sized Blu-ray product would provide around 24GB of storage - nearly as much as a dual-layer HD-DVD CD-sized product, but think of the advantages for digital cameras, camcorders, "ipods", portable SACD recorders, portable computer files, etc...

The only advantage HD-DVD has over Blu-ray (assuming they both use modern codecs) is the name, but HD-DVD is rather cumbersome to say whilst BD [Blu-ray Disc] isn't. So perhaps if they take the B from Blu-ray and the D from Digital Versatile Disc, resulting in BD, and use the technology from Blu-ray with the 12cm disc size from HD-DVD (and the 6cm disc size from minidisc) it'll be a satisfactory merger...

It\'s time we Blu-it...

James Morrow

I don't know where Mueller gets his information that Blu-ray recorders can't play DVDs, as even the first ever Blu-ray recorder, the Sony BDZ-S77, is able to play CDs and DVDs, and Sony's new three wavelength head is capable of reading and writing CDs, DVDs and BDs.

Talking of SACD, DVDA and MLP, I know that film studios are enamoured with 48kHz/24bit audio these days, but if Blu-ray has lossless audio I would expect high fidelity - not just slightly better than "state of the ark" 44kHz/16bit. PCM-wise, support for 192kHz/24bit PCM7.1 would be good for audio only discs, although using a 50GB disc, 72Mbps heads and MPeg4 compression, 192/24/7.1 coupled with high definition video would be easily achievable - and brilliant for live concerts, etc... Of course, 384/24/7.1 would be even better again - and using entropic compression appropriately need not involve much more data than 192/24/7.1...

It\'s time we Blu-it...

Lee Scoggins

Aren't there also some problems with WM9 video? I seem to recall reading this recently in Perfect Vision or elsewhere...

I would prefer to not have a format war as well. Another reason Sony may be adding a codec or two is due to legal pressure on the combined team from the Justice Dept.

no fears alone at night she's sailing through the crowd
in her ears the phones are tight and the music's playing loud
~skateaway

James Morrow

I'll have to check out WM9, but I know that object-orientated MPeg4 is much better for consistently handling objects and object motion within a scene. This also has important implications for efficient compression in next generation high frame-rate variants (1080p96 and higher).

The problem with trying to merge Blu-ray and HD-DVD is that the current HD-DVD standard is a compromise which is 100% DVD and 0% blue-violet laser. The only significant change is replacing the 650nm DVD laser with a 405nm blue-violet laser. In contrast, Blu-ray is 100%BD and 0% DVD. But as both require DVD lasers and compatible heads to read DVDs, from a consumer's viewpoint there is no need for a Blu-ray disc to conform to DVD standards - except being 12cm in diameter and 1.2mm thick.

Also, the new paper disc technology, which can easily be applied to either single-sided or double-sided Blu-ray due to its 1.1mm (0r 1.0mm) substrate, brings disc costs below DVD. Unfortunately, with its 0.6mm protection layer, DVD can't make full use of paper technology.

It\'s time we Blu-it...

Michael St. Clair

Huh? By merging blue-ray, I'm not talking about trying to reconcile incompatible physical disc and laser differences. I'm just talking about both sides getting together and settling on a single format. And I could care less what it is called (though I think Blu-Ray is kind of a dumb name...I like BluDisc or HighDisc better).

My only concern with Blu-Ray's physical format is that replication capacity may be restricted (same as SACD versus regular CD...very little SACD capacity compared to CD capacity). But I'm certainly open-minded about it.

HD-DVD includes losslessly compressed high-res multichannel PCM, even during video playback. If there is any kind of 'merger', I'd like to see that in the final spec.


Not that I'm aware of.

James Morrow

Sounds good - BluDisc could be shortened to BD as already used; HD is harder to say than CD, DVD or BD. 50GB single-sided is just the beginning for BD, whilst 60GB double-sided is the end for AOD - with 1TB computers such as Sony's type X arriving soon we'll need all the capacity we can get for computer-related applications - not to mention HD servers (even 1TB is only around 80 hours of high definition video at 24Mbps).

According to recent reports in Perfect Vision, while it is generally very stable and artifact-free, WM9 loses some of the transparency and three-dimensionality of off-air broadcasts for 1080p at 8Mbps, but a 50GB BD has space for four hours at 24Mbps or, using 72Mbps heads and discs, three hours at 32Mbps. As BD is up to it, why not benefit from the higher capacity and data-rates it supports to get a more transparent system?

The Blu-ray Disc with the range of options supported by both BD and HD-DVD, including high resolution (192kHz/24bit or higher) 7.1 or greater lossless PCM, DSD7.1 and ideally a very high quality "stereo" mode for archiving LPs and tapes on to BD. It should be able to support both high definition audio and video together, not the compromise we have had with SACD (audio only), DVD (mid quality audio) and DVDA (high quality stereo audio, reduced quality multi-channel and limited video).

It\'s time we Blu-it...

Lee Scoggins

I thought I read something in Perfect Vision.

no fears alone at night she's sailing through the crowd
in her ears the phones are tight and the music's playing loud
~skateaway

Lee Scoggins

By the way, I did speak with Michael Smith, head of consumer electronics for Sony North America, at HE2004. He says that he does not see BluRay supporting DSD at this time. When I asked him about this, he stated that he says BluRay as a separate video-oriented product distinct from Sony's music world.

Interesting, no?

It seems Sony may be blowing an opportunity for convergence between video and music here on one player.

no fears alone at night she's sailing through the crowd
in her ears the phones are tight and the music's playing loud
~skateaway

James Morrow

Sounds like Michael is suffering from less than perfect vision too... As the film world is heavily PCM-based - even Sony's CineAlta range of HD recorders has basic 48kHz/24bit audio tracks - and BD is a video product, whereas SACD is an audio-only product, DSD will probably be keeping a low profile as it would send a confused message to the mass market. However, it would be rather strange if a BD player that was backwards-compatible with CD and DVD couldn't play SACD and DVDA - Sony's first universal player might even be a BD machine!

...and if a BD machine had the electronics to decode SACD and DVDA, it wouldn't take that much in future to add SACD or DVDA192 quality soundtracks to music concerts, etc.. Maybe even 7.1 in order to be consistent with the cinema setup. Of course, Digital Theater Systems [DTS] have been working on lossless audio compression up to 96/24/7.1 in cinemas for some time now, and Intel's new PC audio standard supports up to 192/32/7.1 audio, so DVDA192/7.1 support at least makes sense, whilst of course it would be even better to have SACD7.1 too...

It\'s time we Blu-it...

John Milton

What a refreshing change to see someone new who supports one format over another and has studied up on the format of their choice and can provide detailed information and thought about it. Congrats James Morrow and welcome to the forum. Great sig too! I too am hoping Blu-ray becomes the successor to DVD. However, since I'm a movie lover before I'm a format follower, I'll be buying first generation Blu-ray and HD-DVD players. I can only hope that a Universal player will be made within a couple of years of each format launch so as to protect the lifespan of each format. I'd have no real issue with both formats surviving but I don't know how likely that will be. Only time will tell. Consumers will play a big part but IMO the studios will dictate even more so which format will succeed. Warner was a strong promoter of DVD so I'd assume they'll do the same for HD-DVD. I have to give them a lot of credit as I believe they almost single handedly made DVD a success. Is Sony up to the task with Blu-ray? They'll need help and should take a cue from Warner and their partners who offered five free DVDs by mail with most DVD player purchases for at least a year or so.

Offtopic a bit but did Sony acquire MGM's library or not? I remember reading that they were in discussions a month or two ago but I haven't heard anything since. If Sony does buy MGM, a free Bond Blu-ray would make a nice incentive towards consumers purchasing their product. I mean if Lost In Space worked as a freebie incentive for early DVD players purchases, a Bond film should help a bit more. All I know is that I'm excited about these upcoming HD disc formats and can't wait to finally start building a collection again. I sold off nearly every DVD movie I once had... over 900 of them. I realize it'll take some time for a wide variety of movies to be available on BD or HD-DVD discs but the wait should well be worth it. I hope to build and cherish my HD disc collections for many many years to come.