A New Theory about DVDA and SACD Sonic Qualities

Lee Scoggins · 11-20-2003, 12:46 PM

Friends,

I have a new theory about hirez I wanted to share with you and get your opinion on. I have been working with hirez PCM recently and listening to a lot of DSD recordings. I have also been playing both for my friends and listening to more DVDAs on some supersystems.

Here are some observations (with strictly no desire to start a format war, please):

1. Some of my friends who have turntables and listen to a lot of vinyl prefer Super Audio CDs. When I press them for the reason, they say it seems more like vinyl than hirez PCM.

2. Some of my friends who are very sensitive to high frequencies, prefer 24/96 DVDA. They seem to feel that DSD is not as crisp sounding at the upper bands.

3. Some of my friends like a lot of pure midrange, and I fall into this group to be honest. We seem to prefer SACD. In my case, I think it stems from working in the studio with certain acoustical instruments like piano and saxaphone where getting the tonality right and transient capture is important.

4. Some of my friends just outright prefer DVDA citing coherence from low band to high band.

Keep in mind we used mostly audiophile source material...

So with this in mind, I got to thinking. Maybe there are some good and bad characteristics of each format that appeal to different people's listening characteristics and proclivities.

What do you think?

If you prefer DVDA, do you think it has to do with any of the above like HF extension?

If you prefer Super Audio, are you an analog fan or someone who is interested in correct instrument tonality?

I would love to read your thoughts.

It would be nice to see if there are patterns in what one likes in terms of music and preferred area of the music band (ie. low, medium, high range) and the favorite choice of high resolution format.

Remember I like both formats and listen to both.

Brian+H · 11-20-2003, 01:05 PM

'So with this in mind, I got to thinking. Maybe there are some good and bad characteristics of each format that appeal to different people's listening characteristics and proclivities.'

That's the conclusion I came to about a month ago.

dvd-a and sacd appeal to different people for different reasons.

Music is so subjective there's not one 'superior' way of listening to it.

A lot of people think dsd sounds like vinyl. To some that's great, to others that's a bad thing.

Depends on the person.

Some people mention numbers showing one format's better than the other; I personally couldn't care less about numbers, bit-rates, sampling, etc. If I think it sounds better, I don't care about what's on paper.

I think in the end, it will come down to ease of use because most people who aren't audiophiles probably won't notice a difference in sonic quality.

Lee Scoggins · 11-20-2003, 02:14 PM

Brian,

Thanks for your comments but I am interested in what you like about each format...

Seth--L · 11-20-2003, 05:27 PM

Lee Scoggins · 11-20-2003, 05:38 PM

Seth,

What does "\" mean?

**HTF Ads**

Phil A · 11-20-2003, 06:47 PM

Lee, I would concur with the differences noted in your original post, but as a generalization. The underlying mastering process is so important to the sound and I have music of each format that played back on my system I would bet could not be identified as to which format was playing regardless of how familiar one was with the source material. While the nature of what music is released on each format is changing, SACD has catered more to the audiophile vs. putting out newer stuff, which has both good and bad points. One major advantage to DVD-A at this point, which is almost never mentioned, although I also expect the landscape to change over time, is that manufacturers of consumer hardware have a lot more experience building hardware based on PCM vs. DSD. At this point in time this translates into one being able to get a DVD-A machine that can play at a level much closer to more state-of-the-art equipment than cheaper SACD machines can do. I think people criticize the fact that high end manuf. as not making as many DVD-A only products vs. SACD, and while that is true, it is not a valid criticism in my view from what I have heard on a fairly good system.

I definitely in general prefer SACD in my main system, in terms of what I hear in the way of timbre nuances of real instruments vs. what I hear in many DVD-As as a refinement of listening to a better version of some studio experience that is a little colder in terms of presentation. I did however note that there are DVD-As that cannot really be distinguished from teh sonic qualitiies of SACDs. Sonically I can live with either. I can't stand the lack of std. size cases for DVD-As, don't like the middle sized jewel box they use with most of the stuff or the DVD-V size, but I guess if they want to differentiate it from a CD they could at least come to a std. I also can't stand the interface of DVD-A vs. SACD and don't need or want all the stuff other than the music which I am buying for in the 1st place. I certainly don't like paying a premium for it as is charged by some cos. vs. a CD. If I want a DVD-V, I can buy one of those.

I suspect as the end of the day with so many universal players the issue for masses is a non-issue. As consumers we don't control what will be released on a particular format and can only buy the music we like.

Rachael B · 11-20-2003, 10:28 PM

I haven't listened to nearly as many DVD-A's as SACD's. DVD-A sound quality is clearly better than CD so it flips my switch. I just don't buy all that many DVD-A because so few have included a stereo mix. I don't have any strong feelings about the differences in the sound quality between the two formats yet. I do think that SACD portrays horns amazingly well. DVD-A may too? I need more non-Silverline data!

Brian+H · 11-20-2003, 10:30 PM

Hi Lee.

I'm new to posting here, but I've been observing for a while.

What I like about each format?
I am an audiophile, I love the warm easy tone of vinyl.
But I don't like the hassle of it. I tend to see the two formats in comparison to either vinyl or cd.

I am very tired of cd sound. It is sterile, cold, harsh...
I am no fan of it.
When it comes to dvd-a, it's hard to say. I don't really care about the 'extra' features of dvd-a. I just want the best analog-like sound possible. I much prefer analog to digital sound.

So SACD appeals to me more than dvd-a does at this moment.
I also think that PCM is basically at the end of its life.
It can't get much better than 24-192 at least for a while.
I think that dsd is just getting started.

So I prefer dsd at this moment for it's analog-like sound.
But a lot of it depends on the mastering and engineering involved too.

I have been following very closely the progress of both formats on the net. Listening to people's reactions and frustrations of BOTH formats. I think one of these formats will become the next standard after cd audio.
It's been fascinating watching them gain popularity.

IMO, the industry is embracing dsd more enthusiastically than dvd-a at this moment. I always say 'at this moment' cause ya never know whats around the bend.

Lee Scoggins · 11-21-2003, 08:02 AM

Quote:

The underlying mastering process is so important to the sound and I have music of each format that played back on my system I would bet could not be identified as to which format was playing regardless of how familiar one was with the source material.

I agree that the mastering is very important factor and can obscure results. That's why my original post is built around audiophile recordings on both formats where the mastering is good.

Quote:

One major advantage to DVD-A at this point, which is almost never mentioned, although I also expect the landscape to change over time, is that manufacturers of consumer hardware have a lot more experience building hardware based on PCM vs. DSD.

That's probably true, however with the new LSI chips and more experience, I would expect that to change over time and we should see more universal players.

Quote:

So I prefer dsd at this moment for it's analog-like sound.

Thanks Brian for sharing. I hear this a lot.

Quote:

IMO, the industry is embracing dsd more enthusiastically than dvd-a at this moment. I always say 'at this moment' cause ya never know whats around the bend.

It may depend on what the new owners of Warner want. Today's WSJ says that Edgar Bronfman and Tom Lee have been selected by Time Warner as the preferred bid. My best guess having worked close to some Tom Lee deals is that they would favor hirez as a way to improve cash flow. Tom Lee is a strictly cash flow oriented individual and hirez may present additional profits. I don't know how much ongoing investment staying in DVDA or moving into SACD would cost Warner however and that would certainly play a role.