Vince Maskeeper

I believe "The Shape Of Punk To Come" by Refused, taken as an entire album- a single "work" if you will, is the Best, and at the same time the most important/influential hard rock album released between 1990 and 2000.



And I extend this question in all seriousness. I'm not looking for people to post a 2 line opinion of the best Hard Rock album of the 90's, specifically if you have never heard TSOPTC-- rather I'm wondering if there is anyone other there (who has actually listened to this album) and could think of a debatable "better" and/or more potentially influential albums for the genre of hard rock music.

I could see a debate that Pearl Jam's Ten (if you could even call it hard rock) could be considered "more influential" in terms of bands that have come along sounding similar-- however i think most people a keen ear for music would agree that just because a band's singer may cop the Vedder-ism delivery, it doesnt necessarily mean their band would be "pearl jam-esque". Musicially speaking I don't hear many bands really borrowing from the PJ 70's fueled minimalistic rock in as many albums as one might assume.


So- again- I'm wondering if anyone who has listened to and digested the Refused album could find an argument against it being the strongest shot fired in the genre for the decade.

-vince

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MatS

it is certainly one hell of an album, I'll give you that

"best & most important hard rock album of the 90's?"

not too sure about that

just as many would argue, but I don't know if I would agree, that "Loveless" (MBV) is the "best & most important rock album of the 90's"

but then again I can't think of anything better and more important than both of these right now

ElevSkyMovie

Can you post some links of samples to listen to?

I've never heard them, but if they are punk, I don't see how you can say this album is the most influential since we didn't have a huge wave of punk in the 90's. We had a huge wave of Pearl Jam/Nirvana rip-offs for the most part, so that lends credibility to Ten or Nevermind as the most influential.

MatS

this is not a record meant to be listened to in snippet form

Vince Maskeeper

Ohhhhhhhh, now there is an interesting prospect- one I kinda forgot about (given MBV's release came at the beginning of the decade, Nov of 1991). I would certainly say Loveless was/is a groundbreaking work- and certainly is one that must be viewed as a "work as a whole" sort of standpoint.

In terms of influece- I would say Loveless might have the edge, if for no other reason is has had a decade to steep. I would certainly say for the electric "post rock" generations, Loveless is a rough equivalent to what the Velvet Underground had in terms of influence...

Oh, good suggestion (although i'd love to hear your argument why one or the other would be given a top place). I think I'd have to mull it over a little- and Im wondering if the impact of TSOPTC could really be measured, since it's release is relatively recent.

One argument I would offer for Refused OVER Loveless is the amount of genres and fans the Rufused record managed to span. While loveless is undoubtable a classic- I don't know as it really spanned enough boundries to be something you see influencing music outside of a rather narrow group of people. Don't get me wrong, I know tons of great bands and players who would rank Loveless their fave of all time, but when i see refused in the collections of so many different kinds of kids...

But MBV did certainly open up a door on the "vocals as another instrument, not forfront element"- which I think allowed a lot of other artsist to be confident with taking that stance in their own materials...

Good suggestion though. Another one I could make a marginal argument would be FAITH NO MORE, ANGEL DUST... mostly in terms of influence, but...



This is really an ALBUM in the sense of the word- it is not so much a collection of songs, not singles or easily digested pieces- rather I really feel it needs to be listened to and judged as a whole. Some records, good ones at least, are very much that way.



I can't think of many true "punk" albums released in the 90's-- but to call refused a "punk" band simply based upon the title is a bit difficult. They are, more specifically hard rock- the title being a play on "the shape of Jazz to Come" by Ornette Coleman. It's a brash statement, sort of tongue in cheek, about the shape of "punk rock" as an artform, and about music as an artform as well (as oppose to product).

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Iver

It is the best album, but not the Best album.....

Seriously, it's hard to define whether or not a record is influential. Musicians rarely give a straight answer when asked about their influences or, if they do respond, they'll cite a source shrouded in the mists of time.

In a sense, you could certainly say Pearl Jam is influential, as some bands, STP being a prominent example as Kyle mentioned, copped their sound on at least some of their tracks right off PJ.

A record that's often cited as influential is The Velvet Underground's "The VU & Nico" (1967). There's the famous quote of Brian Eno: "Only 100 people bought the VU & Nico, but every one of those people went out and started a band."

There may be something to that. Record sales alone certainly don't tell the story as the VU's debut only made it to 171 on the Top 200 Album chart. Oddly enough, semi-obscure folkie Tim Buckley also enjoyed the most sales success with his debut and also maxed out at 171 on the album charts.

I would actually jointly nominate Never Mind the Bollocks by the Sex Pistols, London Calling by The Clash, and Led Zep's Zoso as the most influential albums of this period: it's true, they were released quite a bit earlier, but they are touchstones of many of the bands that became popular in the 90's such as Nirvana, Pearl Jam, Soundgarden, Screaming Trees, Allison Chains, The Offspring, Green Day, Rancid, and even Sublime (you might have to throw in Natty Dread to cover Sublime's influences).

Jeremy Anderson

It's so difficult to nail down influences that I think this whole thing is kinda' moot. Take any given song and play it for 20 people and it may remind them of 20 different bands. This is especially true when you get into the punk and hard rock genres, because there are so many fringe bands that had a lot of influence. For instance, when I hear the modern radio pseudo-punk, it reminds me more of the post-punk era where suddenly the punk ethos and love songs were strangely amalgamated. I'm talking about bands like Descendents, ALL, Lagwagon, etc. In fact, I would venture that DESCENDENTS and BLACK FLAG are probably the two biggest influences from that genre that you can hear in modern radio punk. Now, if you had to nail me down to what band from the late 80's/early 90's had the most influence on modern punk/alt/hard rock, I have to say THE PIXIES hands down.

As far as that Refused disc goes, they just come off a lot like a less hip Mr. T Experience to me. Don't get me wrong... I'm not downing the album at all. It's interesting enough but as far as most influential goes, I don't hear it. Maybe that's just me though.

Good call on Faith No More's Angel Dust, Vince. In my opinion, the sound they had on that album has crept into a lot more modern rock than most realize.

But here's today's very opinionated statement that will likely cause an argument:
THE BAND THAT HAS INFLUENCED MORE PUNK/HARD ROCK/SKACORE BANDS THAN ANY OTHER IS... FISHBONE.