Marc Colella

True, but it does tell us what format the consumers care much more about. SACD sales are miniscule compared to that of music DVDs.


Simple... because the industry (labels) are desperate to find a way to generate more cash - trying to have people purchase the same titles they already own in yet another format. Plus the labels also want to impose a format with copy protection onto the consumers.

SACD has been around for how long now? It's still nowhere near to becoming a house-hold name. High Definition television has pretty limited programming and is much more expensive to adopt - yet it is a more familiar technology that SACD is. Apple and oranges - but it is telling.

You'll notice that the labels are becoming less uptight about digital music and are releasing everything they can on music DVD. Once again, the labels are desperate to stay alive.



I mind that people purchase/rent/view mindless, unintelligent movies - but it's all about preference... I have my preferences, and other people have their's.

I know alot of music fans who couldn't care less about high resolution recordings and gear... to them, it's all about the music and they think it's anal to want better quality than CD. One of these friends writes reviews for a blues publication and lives/breaths music.

In the end, it's the demand of the consumers that make/break a format - and it looks like the consumers have spoken and are voting for MP3 and music DVDs with their wallets.

Marc Colella

But you know the majority of people would be purchasing for the CD layer.

Lee Scoggins

I always said the marketing aspects of both formats leave a lot to be desired. Still, there are real signs that Super Audio is maintaining some traction.



The ongoing music merger news is perhaps a better example of the labels trying to stay alive.



Okay, but why not let audiophiles and music fans enjoy the extra quality and resolution of Super Audio and DVD Audio then?

We have a choice also to pick a better performing format...

I think there is a real possibility that there can be two music buying groups:

Group #1. MP3 loving consumers. This group is probably mostly under 30 with limited (or not) disposable income.

Group #2. Hirez loving-choose either format or LP the original hirez format. These are likely older music fans with more disposable income, some of which are audiophiles.

Maybe Group 1 represents most of the consumers, but Group 2 represents a stable niche of HT buffs, audiophiles, and just serious music fans who want the definitive Bob Dylan, Pink Floyd, Peter Gabriel, Eric Clapton, etc.

I am not sure it matters what the split is: 90/10 or 60/40...I think it just matters that Group 2 is big enough and profitable enough to maintain the major labels interest. The characteristics of Group 2 are clearly great relationships for the labels-repeat purchases, higher margins, collectors, etc.

Marc, certainly you would agree that if we could migrate music lovers from group 1 to group 2, then there could be value...we would see more hirez title availability and perhaps have a new, more profitable business model for music labels. That would help give consumers more choice in the long run IMHO.

Conversely, in an all-MP3 world we would be limited to a further deteriorated profit model for the labels, less choice, less artist development, less money for niches like jazz and classical.

I would prefer the hirez option.

P.S. Side benefit is that hirez generally forces engineers to have less production garbage in the output and cleaner (better sounding) recording methods.

no fears alone at night she's sailing through the crowd
in her ears the phones are tight and the music's playing loud
~skateaway

LanceJ

As far as LP being a hi-res format: that is an opinion, not a fact.

And vinyl has so many music-distorting processes it's not funny:

* groove cross-talk (interferes with orignal stereo imaging)

* phase issues from groove/stylus/cartridge interactions (music "airiness" can result).

* treble frequencies literally softened because of the stylus' destructive action on the vinyl groove itself.

* phono preamp distortions, particularly in cheaper equipment (any analog circuitry handling such delicate signals has to be designed/manufactured carefully).

* inner groove distortion, many times large & completely audible amounts of it.

* LP is a self-erasing format, which can be minimized if very good care is taken when handling it & choosing good playback gear.

* pops and clicks were not there during the original studio recording session.

It's lucky for the LP format some of the above distortions actually do help the resulting sound to sound pleasant but this is not a true representation of what the musician was playing at the time. While digital has it's own set of distortions, IMO they cause much less distortion of the original music.

Even though I myself think an LP can sound really nice, I don't think it is the most accurate of playback formats, thus to me it is not a high resolution format.

Now back to the original thread.

LJ

Marc Colella

I'm not as optimistic about their progress.
I should mention that I don't mean to pick on SACD, DVD-A seems to be doing even worse.



Agreed. Another example is the RIAA trying any tactics possible to kill file sharing.



I have no problem with audiophiles having their fix of hi-rez titles. I have a SACD player and some discs - I don't mind having a selection to choose from.

What will make the decision for the labels is the bottom line. The average consumer has the potential to bury these formats.
Will hi-rez be profitable enough for the labels to stick with it? We honestly don't know. A niche product is the best hope IMO - but that doesn't guarrantee it's survival.

LaserDisc was a niche product and survived until DVD came onto the scene. The only alternative to it was VHS - which was a tape-based media and really not considered the same quality.
SACD/DVD-A already has competing formats that is considered hi-quality by the average Joe - MP3, CD and music DVDs.

Will the labels want to keep hi-rez alive with all this competition? Time will tell. It's a helluva a uphill battle though.

One things for sure... the music industry getting deeper into trouble with each passing day - and I honestly don't believe hi-rez will change that one bit.

Lee Scoggins

Well agree but I think hirez is the way to better profits. Somehow the labels must create content with features (resolution?, multi-channel?, video?, single track downloads for cheap?) that people will pay for, when MP3s are available for free.

I think part of the answer involves artist development as well. Right now there is too much incentive for labels to place multiple-of-ten-million-dollar bets on young artists and then lose big if they don't sell. I think giving true "equity" to artists could be an answer.



Michael J. Wolf has a different take. He wrote in the Wall Street Journal today that the music mergers mean that the industry is working through its troubles and that he believes the industry can get people to pay for content easier over time. He cites other products like Starbucks coffee where industries built brands that created value for the consumer, if in part just atmospheric.

I will see if I can get a link...

no fears alone at night she's sailing through the crowd
in her ears the phones are tight and the music's playing loud
~skateaway

Lee Scoggins

Lance I used to believe this also until I heard my friend Bob's VPI and Benz Micro combination compared to his Sony SCD-1 SACD player on the same material. The vinyl was better, sometimes marginally, sometimes a bit more.

There is something about analog that is special. Part of the magic is the lack for a A to D conversion, then lack of a D to A conversion, that every digital format has.

LP can be magical.

no fears alone at night she's sailing through the crowd
in her ears the phones are tight and the music's playing loud
~skateaway

FeisalK

Quote:

Even though I myself think an LP can sound really nice, I don't think it is the most accurate of playback formats, thus to me it is not a high resolution format.

well, 'resolution' implies some form of sampling which simply doesn't happen in analog, and therefore you can't compare them that way IMO. It's only hi-rez in comparison to redbook anyways, isn't it?

>
DVD-A registry for hirez/surround audio
Bluray, DVD-Audio, DAD/HDAD, DualDisc, MVI
<

Lee Scoggins

Resolution in this sense refers to the amount of detail, as many audio reviewers use the term.

Analog offfers a lot of detail when done right.

no fears alone at night she's sailing through the crowd
in her ears the phones are tight and the music's playing loud
~skateaway

Iver

Marc Colella:




When you say "formats of the future," do you mean they have the potential for popularity, or are you saying they are already viable, well-accepted formats?

If you mean the latter, I would totally agree on MP3. But music DVD-V, in my very subjective opinion, suffers from a serious lack of compelling titles.

Numerically, the format does seem to be doing well. The Tower Records Web site lists 4,322 "Music DVD" titles versus 586 combined for SACD and DVD-A. That's not necessarily a precise reflection of the music marketing scene, but it does indicate a relative preponderance of music DVD-V titles as compared to hi-rez discs.

That's not to say there are none of those 4,322 music DVD's which I like. But with my criteria being that the DVD has to not just be a movie soundtrack that happens to be music oriented and that the title has to have optimal songs and/or performance quality from the band, I do not find many selections that would really get me walking to the record store.

Many of the titles Tower lists are music video collections, which is like getting a greatest hits album without the b-sides and alternate tracks that make those kind of records interesting. Also popular are concert videos of bands somewhat past their recording prime. It would have been nice if they had footage of the Allman Brother's Fillmore East concerts. Instead, they have video from the band at the Beacon Theater, after the passing of many years and a couple of key band members.

Here's the rather short list of DVD-V music titles, fitting the criteria above, I have seen and liked: Beatles, Anthology; Beatles, A Hard Days Night; and Led Zeppelin, Led Zeppelin. These are the titles I would like to see: Steely Dan, Two Against Nature; Eagles, Hell Freezes Over.

What would you list as 20 really great DVD-V music titles?

Marc Colella