DSOTM 5.1 in PCM!

Mark_Waldrep · 08-08-2003, 07:17 PM

A posting on the SurSound list asserts that James Guthrie mixed DSOTM in 5.1 to 96 kHz/24-bit PCM for the SACD. The only direct DSD recording was the 2.0. Very curious...

Quote:

James Guthrie indicated to me, in direct conversation, that the 5.1 was was mixed to 24/96 PCM before conversion to DSD. The stereo layer, however, went from the original analog 2-track master to DSD.

Alan Silverman

I'd love to know how many SACD releases are actually PCM conversions. I was surprized to learn at the Amsterdam AES that Galaxy Studios, on of the foremost proponents of DSD and SACD, uses a Euphonix R-1 (high-resolution PCM recorder) to track their projects before an analog 5.1 to DSD. It would be very helpful to have the production process included on new titles...one never knows.

Lee Scoggins · 08-08-2003, 07:44 PM

Man, you are really stirring the pot Mark!

I'm not sure I would take a posting on the web as the final conclusion is my first thought.

I think the bottom line is how it sounds. The 5.1 Dark Side sounds awesome as does the two channel.

A significant number of "direct DSD" recordings are out and they are usually among the best sounding.

I think Stephen Best at sacdinfo.com may have some statistics on how many are from PCM sources...but the problem is that most of the packaging does not indicate the type of source which is unfortunately common for the industry.

Mark, I have another question...

How many copies do your DVDAs typically sell?

You seem really busy and doing well, and I was wondering if you would feel comfortable indicating what a typical DVDA unit sales # looks like. I'm curious as a student of business what the economics might be like for a small label doing DVD Audio. I realize there may be a lot of data you don't want to share but I was hoping volume might be okay.

LanceJ · 08-08-2003, 07:52 PM

This one's too easy, so I'll keep my comments to myself.

LJ

Michael St. Clair · 08-08-2003, 07:59 PM

Quote:

I'd love to know how many SACD releases are actually PCM conversions.

So would I. There is little 'truth in labeling' in this business. I'm very curious about this regardless of whether or not that Pink Floyd post was accurate. We aren't being told, on the majority of releases, what the source was.

Quote:

You seem really busy and doing well, and I was wondering if you would feel comfortable indicating what a typical DVDA unit sales # looks like. I'm curious as a student of business what the economics might be like for a small label doing DVD Audio. I realize there may be a lot of data you don't want to share but I was hoping volume might be okay.

I wouldn't interpret much about how DVD-A is doing from AIX sales, they are a boutique label without big-name artists. I'd be far more interested in seeing sales of mainstream 'marketed as DVD-A' DVD-A titles contrasted with 'marketed as SACD' (no stealth single-inventory discs) SACD titles. Any info out there?

Mark_Waldrep · 08-08-2003, 09:04 PM

I'm sorry to be "stirring the pot", I just find it frustrating that so much mystery surrounds the issuance of high-resolution titles. And it's not only the SACD camp...I have personally taken tracks from a CD, extracted them to 5.1, upsampled to 96/24 and given them to another DVD-Audio house for release.

My position is that in order to attract new fans to the world of high-resolution 5.1 surround music, you have to have products that are just that. Sadly, most aren't.

In terms of my own sales, I can tell you that I have made money on everything that I have issued. We move thousands not ten of thousands but every month the number is climbing. I wouldn't keep doing this if it wasn't profitable.

**HTF Ads**

John Kotches · 08-08-2003, 09:31 PM

Lee,

sursound is a mailing list, it isn't a web site as you've described it. A few of the people that participate in the sursound list include Bob Katz, Bob Stuart (very infrequently), Vicki Melchior (National Semiconductor), Richard Elen and many academics from the UK.

I've learned a heck of a lot since subscribing to this list myself. Since I get the list in digest form I probably won't see this until tomorrow morning unless it generates a tremendous amount of traffic. I didn't know Mark subscribed to sursound as well, but then again I'm also not surprised.

If the message to sursound from Silverman is incorrect a number of individuals will point it out rather quickly. OTOH, if DSoTM was truly mixed in 24/96K it would be embarassing for those who've trumpeted this recording as proof of DSDs "superiority" to PCM.

I suspect the sursound list will be very interesting over the weekend.

Regards,

Mike Broadman · 08-08-2003, 09:34 PM

Quote:

My position is that in order to attract new fans to the world of high-resolution 5.1 surround music, you have to have products that are just that. Sadly, most aren't.

Well, a PCM-to-DSD conversion is still high-res, it's just high-res with conversion. Or something.

I'd be interested to find out some more details about why he used DSD for stereo and PCM for surround. I can only guess it has something to do with equipment available.

John Kotches · 08-08-2003, 09:53 PM

Mike,

My only comment is we aren't sure what was used

Time will tell though.

Regards,

Stephen Best · 08-08-2003, 10:06 PM

I think Stephen Best at sacdinfo.com may have some statistics on how many are from PCM sources...but the problem is that most of the packaging does not indicate the type of source which is unfortunately common for the industry.

Here's my stats:

SACDinfo.com/stats.php

As Lee pointed out, there's lots of gaps. Some titles from analogue recordings have used PCM for intermediate remastering as well (eg. those from DG and BMG HK).

Anyway, the point is whether the music is good and whether it sounds good. Pristine recordings of third-rate artists and music will just end up as curiosities.

Stephen Best
SACDinfo.com

Justin Lane · 08-08-2003, 10:16 PM

Remember DSOTM was rumored to be a DVD-A for quite some time. It wasn't until Sony swooped in and showed Capitol the money, that the disc became SACD (a good move by Sony). I wouldn't be surprised if most of the disc was already done in PCM before Sony showed up on the scene, or that PCM tools are just easier to use for mastering. An analog stereo to DSD conversion is a much simpler process and wouldn't require making new multichannel masters or working with DSD rigs that are not as user friendly as the well established PCM tools.

All this being said, I now definitely want a DVD-A of this disc if it was done in PCM. No unnecessary PCM to DSD conversions which please.

J

Justin Lane · 08-08-2003, 10:18 PM

Quote:

I have personally taken tracks from a CD, extracted them to 5.1, upsampled to 96/24 and given them to another DVD-Audio house for release.

Mark,

This couldn't be Silverline you are performing such work for?

J