Lee Scoggins

Philip, you need to reread the posts...we commented a lot.

The Pink Floyd message board actually in my mind demonstrates Ken Stuart's bias against the format. If you read the board from Page 1, you see many strong recommendations for the Super Audio Dark Side of The Moon, both hirez and redbook layers. That's supposed to be evidence against the format?

Also, some posters clearly do not understand multi-channel sound and make some dumb statements. We know that MC is confusing to people already but that affects both hirez formats.



I think it is the opposite. With most SACDs, you can play them in a CD player AND you don't have to navigate with a TV like you do some DVDAs. That's much more convenient.

But hey buy what you want, you will be missing a lot of quality software if you only do DVDA.

Late Addition: I just noticed that High Fidelity Review is now listing some 180 different record labels for Super Audio versus 79 for DVD Audio. So it would appear that hirez formats are getting traction.

no fears alone at night she's sailing through the crowd
in her ears the phones are tight and the music's playing loud
~skateaway

Felix Martinez

While a monitor is obviously needed to access multi-media content in DVD-A (and I'm assuming future SACD II discs), I cannot think of a DVD-A title that I've had to fire up the projector for to just listen to the audio.

In my recent DVD ETC interview with Craig Eggers of Dolby re: their Surround In Motion technology, we discussed this perception of the necesity of a monitor for DVD-A and that it's in fact a misperception. Dolby's made some great strides in bringing multi-channel audio into cars (and pretty much any listening space outside the home theater) and specifically, they've been working with OEM and after market hardware manufacturers re car DVD-A installations, and he strongly stated that having a monitor is not necessary to listen to DVD-A audio.

Just my $.02,

Felix E. Martinez
My "All-Spin" Zone of fave Blu-ray, DVD-Audio, SACD, and other assorted new media goodies...

Lee Scoggins

Thanks Felix for the comments, but in a number of cases it can be necessary to have a monitor to access all the features or even just the music depending on what type of DVDA player one has.

What do you think the current state of MC Audio is, by the way?

Do you see any signs that it is gaining hold?

I'm glad to see DVDA working on car systems. I have heard that Sony is working on Super Audio car systems as well.

no fears alone at night she's sailing through the crowd
in her ears the phones are tight and the music's playing loud
~skateaway

Rich Malloy

Felix, that may be true for one with a new DVD-audio player, but for those of us playing the DTS, DD or LPCM tracks on DVD-V players that is not the case. At least not with all software.

I don't have a ton of DVD-As, but all the recent releases I've purchased require that I have a monitor hooked up if I wish to change to any track other than the default track. Just off the top of my head, this is true for Beach Boys "Pet Sounds", Donald Fagen "The Nightfly" and Steely Dan "Everything Must Go". As the default track is almost invariably to Dolby Digital, I must turn on my monitor to access the DTS, LPCM, or stereo/mono tracks as the case may be. Craig Eggers is simply wrong, and the misperception seems to be on the part of Dolby Laboratories.

Then again, as the default track is invariably Dolby Digital, perhaps that's why he doesn't see it as a problem?

\"Only one is a wanderer;
Two together are always going somewhere.\"

Phil A

I've had several DVD-A players in my house. Currently I have a Pioneer Elite DVD-47A universal and a Samsung HD1000 DVD-A/DVD-V player. As with anything in audio, blanket statements that something is never required do not hold up. Every DVD-A player I've had or any of my friends has had (which are a lot but not the whole universe of players) requires a monitor in order to know what one is listening to, including many of those with a group button. Getting sound to come out by knowing about the player is not hard, knowing what you are getting is hard. I've heard a few people indicate they hated the sound of Neil Young's "Harvest" until I found out that they were getting the L&R channel of the multi-channel mix and concluding the disc was terrible which it is not. I've also seen a demo in front of 35+ audiophiles by Linn utilizing the Unidisk prototype player and I can tell you that based on this all unfortunately came away with the impression that DVD-A sucks horribly (vs. SACD and I would bet statistically at least some might have preferred DVD-A sonically if they had a proper demo). It was a similar problem with getting the L&R of the multi-channel mix.

For exactly those reasons, some pre/pros are offering built-in monitors. I saw the new Rotel the other day and will get to hear it in more detail this weekend. I personally solved the problem with a cheap (about $60) 13 inch color TV (with a video input) so I don't have to turn on my projector. I had a 5.5 inch ($25) B&W but some of the menus were difficult to discern. DVD-As are not authored identically.

Justin Lane

Quote:

I don't have a ton of DVD-As, but all the recent releases I've purchased require that I have a monitor hooked up if I wish to change to any track other than the default track. Just off the top of my head, this is true for Beach Boys "Pet Sounds", Donald Fagen "The Nightfly" and Steely Dan "Everything Must Go". As the default track is almost invariably to Dolby Digital, I must turn on my monitor to access the DTS, LPCM, or stereo/mono tracks as the case may be.

Of course for most folks, DD is perfectly fine, and DD is the official audio format of DVD, so defaulting to that track makes perfect sense. The reason they probably do not allow DTS to be accessed by a simple press of the audio button is that if one does not have a DTS decoder, the DTS signal will result in noise that could be damaging to equipment. A slight inconveinience, but probably necessary in today's world.

Quote:

Craig Eggers is simply wrong, and the misperception seems to be on the part of Dolby Laboratories.

I don't understand this statement Rich You put in a DVD-A either in DVD-A or DVD only player and it begins playing in Dolby Digital Multichannel or MLP Multichannel. No monitor is required. Switching between other bonus tracks (outside the DVD-A specs) on a DVD-V player may require a monitor, but the same could be said for accessing other bonus material such as videos, lyrics, photos, etc. As I said above, its a protective measure.


J

Rich Malloy

What's not to understand? If I want to change from the lower resolution Dolby Digital multichannel track to the preferred DTS track (which I always, always do), I have to have a monitor. If I want to access a stereo or mono PCM track, which I also very much like to do, I have to have a monitor. To use these discs requires a monitor. Very simple.

\"Only one is a wanderer;
Two together are always going somewhere.\"

LarryDavenport

I have a theory as to why SACD and DVDA are not bigger (and I am just pulling this out of my ass so bare with me). It's because a) the labels don't send out SACDs or DVDAs to all the usual reviewers, and b) even if they did not enough of the said reviewers have the set up to play them. Scouring the internet I have found a few placed that review Hi Rez discs (Music Tap, Audio Revolution, and High Fidelity Review as well as SACDinfo, which is user based). Their reviews are few and far between, my guess because they have to buy their own discs.

If anyone knows of a better source for Hi Rez reviews (one's that people like me* can easily understand) please let me know.

* People like me = when you start talking numbers with k or hz at the end I am lost. DOn't give me math, just tell me how it sounds.

The Pageantry of Me

Philip Hamm

I think you're completely missing my point and the point of the whole thread.

I agree that SACD could be construed as being easier to use because you don't need a monitor. You could argue that it is more audiophile-friendly than DVD-A for that reason. I would disagree, but it's beside the point.

The point is this:

Joe Normal, who happens to be a Pink Floyd fan, has a $300 DVD surround sound system that he got at Wal*Mart (or a $1000 system from Best Buy). When Joe picks up a hybrid SACD, there's a good chance that it won't even play on his system. And if it does, he'll only get the CD stereo, not the surround sound promised on the box. Maybe he'll be smart enough to turn on one of his "Surround" DSP modes to hear simulated surround sound and think that's the "real thing". As far as the non-audiophile, the format is confusing and diffult. If Joe Normal was lucky enough to get a Sony Dream system, he can play the SACDs, but for some reason he won't get those neato menus that he's gotten used to. If not, he can't get surround without spending mucho $$$ on new hardware.

Same Joe Normal buys a DVD-A if he likes the artist. He knows very well that it's not a CD because the case has the easily recognizable and ubiquitous DVD logo. No matter what DVD system he's using, he'll get true surround sound that won't be some DSP mode.

See what I mean? SACD is not consumer friendly at all, I've used real examples from the referenced SACD thread at the Pink Floyd web site. I'd be willing to bet that if I found a Metallica message board thread discussing the "Black Album" DVD-Audio disc there would not be nearly as much confusion.

Rich Malloy, FYI, when you use DVD-Audio on a DVD-Video player, you are not using DVD-Audio. It is DVD-Video you are using. Your concern about not being able to change the audio channel are irrelevant since that's never been a claim of DVD-Video. Besides, a click on the "Audio" button from your remote should do the trick.

Philip Hamm
Moderator Emeritus

Felix Martinez

*Sigh* (this can be a very long discussion, with much emotion, but here's my very quick and superficial take...)

I kinda railed on the industry in my June column. DVD-V succeeded because people "got" the experience. The same needs to be done, marketing-wise, with SACD/DVD-A. The key IMHO is the multi-channel option in the hi-res formats. People hear and get that value-added benefit over CDs. And with even a decent system, anyone *can* hear the difference between 44.1/16-bit CD and the hi-res formats.

It's just depressing to see a lonely DVD-A kiosk in the Virgin Megastore on Sunset Blvd almost buried underneath the stairs. It's equally depressing to hear or read about die hard Pink Floyd fans not aware that DSOTM is currently available in hi-res 5.1 surround.

You want marketing - look at Apple. They somehow have been able to take the MP3 phenom - which is already "old news" and made it exciting again. Why? They sold a new experience.

Sell the multi-channel hi-res experience. Educate and demonstrate. BELIEVE ME - every person that has sat in my room and listened to Hotel California (DVD-A), Vivaldi's La Stravaganza or DSOTM (SACD), or any other multi-channel hi-res release has been floored.


Too much effort and $ is being spent by the industry to make each format more like the other (i.e. a CD "layer" or dedicated side of a 2-sided disc for DVD-A and expanded multimedia for SACD). Why did 75 million people buy DVD players when VHS was everywhere? They got the experience and were excited by it.

IMHO - and this might be a controversial statement - the DVD (and future HD-DVD) format is here to stay for a VERY long time. Sony and Phillips need to get SACD compatibility into ALL DVD hardware ASAP - particularly when HD-DVD rolls around and folks upgrade their players.

And re: DVD-A - stop worrying about CD compatibility! The only CD player that I still use is in my car. All my computers no longer have CD-ROM drives. Why not concentrate on leapfrogging CD hardware altogether? And unlike the VHS to DVD transition, all CDs play in DVD players. The focus should be on hardware on this issue, not software. Just my opinion.

Great to hear about SACD in the car. Ditto my comments about Sony and Phillips getting SACD compatibility into ALL hardware brands in the car. If not, folks will soon be listening to multi-channel DVD and only the stereo redbook layer on SACD in cars.



DVD-V content may require a monitor to navigate, but my comment was addressing Lee's discussion of SACD/DVD-A. On the DVD-A side I don't believe I've ever had to use a monitor to just listen to hi-rez DVD-A tracks, but you're right about the DVD-V side. Craig in my article was also speaking about DVD-A.

Cheers,

Felix E. Martinez
My "All-Spin" Zone of fave Blu-ray, DVD-Audio, SACD, and other assorted new media goodies...