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05-15-2003, 01:19 PM
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#61 of 103 
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HTF Warner Brothers Reviewer
Location: Livonia, MI USA
Join Date: Feb 2001
Local Time: 04:49 PM
Local Date: 11-18-2008
Posts: 6,162
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And once you do get an ICBM, the issue of how a disc is mixed (LFE or no LFE, bass in the main channels or not, etc.) will be totally and completely irrelevant. You will then have some of the best, most flexible BM available.
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Quite the contrary, you will then be at the mercy of whatever crossover the mixers decided your bass needed to go to mono, even though you have a system that could otherwise be tuned to your exact speaker set-up.
Regards,
Ken McAlinden
Livonia, MI USA
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05-15-2003, 01:24 PM
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#62 of 103
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Member
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No, but thank you for your condescension.
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"Condescension"?
Question!
Anything with a question mark after it, too me, is a "question".
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I was talking about the generation of music moreso than the reproduction.
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Hope you can understand my mistaking the statement
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Unless the music is completely electronically generated
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to say; music is not record electronically.
If, I was trying too be condescending, I would have stated; This is a joke.
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Most music is not performed/generated with a discrete mono signal for low bass.
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Not to worry!
It will be.
I am speaking in terms of 5.1 recorded music.
Not, mono & stereo.
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In terms of multiple channels to capture the (or create a) spatial element of a music signal, the LFE channel is not required.
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"Not required".
Not sure were your getting this information.
A properly setup stereo system can create phantom center & surround information.
Therefore, the center & surrounds, by your argument/statement, are "not required".
For me, the LFE channel add's the visceral experience that put's me directly in: The Hall, The Club,The Stadium...
Taking out the discrete bass channel leaves me one step away, not closer, to the actual music event.
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I agree with the concern that as it is employed for music, it pre-supposes the bass-management needs of the listener and as such will be wrong most of the time.
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Agree.
It's like someone 'setting' DVD's to look good on 'all' video monitors. What's good for the average joe, is going to 'hurt' the videophile.
Movies are: "The Greatest Artform".
HD should be for EVERYONE!
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05-15-2003, 01:36 PM
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#63 of 103
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HTF Warner Brothers Reviewer
Location: Livonia, MI USA
Join Date: Feb 2001
Local Time: 04:49 PM
Local Date: 11-18-2008
Posts: 6,162
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Quote:
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Taking out the discrete bass channel leaves me one step away, not closer, to the actual music event.
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...and my point was that there was likely no discrete bass in the hall, the club, or the stadium.
Regards,
Ken McAlinden
Livonia, MI USA
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05-15-2003, 01:39 PM
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#64 of 103
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Member
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Quote:
Quite the contrary, you will then be at the mercy of whatever crossover the mixers decided your bass needed to go to mono, even though you have a system that could otherwise be tuned to your exact speaker set-up.
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EDIT: I get what you are saying now. Still...
An ICBM gives me all kinds of flexibility regarding setting my own crossover point, tailored to my set of speakers. The whole issue of bass going monoaural is irrelevant to me, since the alternative is no deep bass at all (my main speakers begin rolling off at around 40 Hz).
DVD-A and SACD give me no flexibility at all. My player, for example, lets me set up my speakers at full range or 120 Hz high-pass. Neither setting is adequate for me. The ICBM can fix the issue.
Brian:
Aye. 
Quid, me anxius sum?
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05-15-2003, 01:42 PM
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#65 of 103
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...and my point was that there was likely no discrete bass in the hall, the club, or the stadium.
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There certainly are speakers at a concert that are for bass only!!!
Like I said; "Back to Mono".
There is no discrete center, left surround, center surround, or right suround, either.
Except, maybe at a Pink Floyd or Alan Parsons concert!
So, based on your "quote", why have 'any'?
Movies are: "The Greatest Artform".
HD should be for EVERYONE!
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05-15-2003, 02:36 PM
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#66 of 103
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HTF Warner Brothers Reviewer
Location: Livonia, MI USA
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Ed,
A concert hall has spatial characteristics at all frequencies, right?
The array of speakers at home is set-up to create a spatial effect, right?
LFE bass has no spatial characteristic and is treated as directionless, right?
The ear is less sensitive to directionality at low frequencies, which makes directionless bass less of a compromise, but still a compromise.
No LFE = No compromise of spatiality.
Should your hardware require a compromise, bass management can be tuned to optimize this. Building it into the mix via sending bass to a mono LFE channel forces most folks to accept a sub-optimal compromise.
Regards,
Ken McAlinden
Livonia, MI USA
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05-15-2003, 03:17 PM
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#67 of 103
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Quite the contrary, you will then be at the mercy of whatever crossover the mixers decided your bass needed to go to mono, even though you have a system that could otherwise be tuned to your exact speaker set-up.
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I think the best place for this thread is in my "agree to disagree" file.
BGL |
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05-15-2003, 04:13 PM
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#68 of 103
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HTF Warner Brothers Reviewer
Location: Livonia, MI USA
Join Date: Feb 2001
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Local Date: 11-18-2008
Posts: 6,162
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Quote:
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I think the best place for this thread is in my "agree to disagree" file.
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With what do you disagree, though?
If your hardware has an optimal crossover point of 40Hz, and the mix has bass from 100Hz on down mixed to mono, then no matter how you have your ICBM set-up, you are stuck with mono bass from 100Hz down. If the bass had been left in the five full-range channels, your ICBM could "minimize the compromise". Rich's assertion that kicked off this thread would be the best possible situation.
I strongly believe that your ICBM should do your bass management, not some mixer who does not know your system.
Regards,
Ken McAlinden
Livonia, MI USA
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05-15-2003, 04:35 PM
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#69 of 103
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Member
Join Date: Sep 2002
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Should your hardware require a compromise, bass management can be tuned to optimize this. Building it into the mix via sending bass to a mono LFE channel forces most folks to accept a sub-optimal compromise.
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Exactly. High-end full-range speakers have always been designed to reproduce any audible signal you throw at them. Why should a dedicated channel for bass be necessary for anything now?
Let's not forget that the only reason why sub/sat systems -- which are the only kind of speakers that benefit from having a discrete .1 channel -- exist is that most people don't want or can't afford big, full-range speakers in their home. But if you have the means to get as many full-range speakers as you want and the knowhow to set it all up properly, why would you want a signal source (CD or DVD) that can only reproduce low bass in mono? And more important, why would you want a CD or DVD that forces you to do special bass-management settings to make sure you're getting the right amount of the low end? |
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05-15-2003, 05:43 PM
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#70 of 103
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Member
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Ken_McAlinden,
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A concert hall has spatial characteristics at all frequencies, right?
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Right, "ALL" frequencies.
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The array of speakers at home is set-up to create a spatial effect, right?
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Right, depending on the room & speakers.
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LFE bass has no spatial characteristic and is treated as directionless, right?
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Right, on the directionless. Though, we may have 'deferent' definitions for "spatial".
My definition for "spatial", would included visceral.
It's 'enjoyable' to me how the same instrument will sound 'different' in a cave than a field. And a lot of that 'different' feel for me would be the visceral impact the cave gives the instrument as apposed to the lack of visceral impact from the vastness of the field.
That's me. You may not care, understand, feel, whatever...
this affect. I don't know? Do you get a 'greater' sense of bass, based (pun intended) on your surrounding?
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The ear is less sensitive to directionality at low frequencies, which makes directionless bass less of a compromise, but still a compromise.
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Sorry, missed this one completely!
The ear is less sensitive part, I got.
Don't understand "less of a compromise, but still a compromise"?
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No LFE = No compromise of spatiality.
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As stated I would miss the visceral. However, if your speaking in strict terms of directional, at other than the bass frequencies, than yes.
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Building it into the mix via sending bass to a mono LFE channel forces most folks to accept a sub-optimal compromise.
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OK, there is the problem!
Your talking about some goof ball putting "ALL" the bass in the LFE channel.
That's stupid.
As I have stated previously, "ALL" five full range spks should be used full range.
Please tell me who you know of that puts "ALL" the bass in the .1 channel for music!
I am talking, and have be speaking of all along, is a discrete .1/LFE channel. With bass played and recorded for that channel and that channel only!
This thread seems to treat the LFE channel as BAD!
If your problem with the LFE is poor, to say the least, USE of this channel. Please say so.
Just don't take away the .1/LFE channel, cause someone doesn't use it properly!
Movies are: "The Greatest Artform".
HD should be for EVERYONE!
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05-15-2003, 05:58 PM
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#71 of 103
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Member
Join Date: May 2001
Local Time: 01:49 PM
Local Date: 11-18-2008
Posts: 3,194
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Quote:
Why should a dedicated channel for bass be necessary for anything now?
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