In defense of Titanic... - Page 2

andreasingo · 10-04-2001, 07:09 PM

quote: "Maybe he made me believe that the characters were on a sinking ship, but he never made me care, and that's what seperates a well-made movie from a great movie. "

I tend not to agree with that one. A movie can contain characters you don't care for and still be great. These movies mean something to you on a intellectual and visual level more than on a emotional level. Stanley Kubricks films works this way for me. One great example is Barry Lyndon. I hated Barry but for a reason. For me Barry Lyndon is Stanley Kubricks attempt to throw hatred at the "Noble People". The point was we didn't like him. Another example is 2001. The characters are important to make that film beleaveable but we don't need to care for them.

quote: "Especially, in the case of Titanic, where the first half of the movie was completely focused on the characters. Obviously, they wanted us to care about them, but they failed."

I agree Cameron tried to make us care for the characters so it's studid to compare Titanic to 2001. In your eyes Cameron failed and to a certain degree I agree. But I don't think he failed so much that it destroyed the film for me, the great acting (especially from Kate Winslet) and the rest of the film more than made up for it, especially since great characters is not what I look for in a Cameron film (as I said). I think Titanic is the greatest technical and visual achievement in the medium of film in the 90's and for me that's enough to say it's a great film.

Look, if Scorcese could make a film with the same "you are there" impact as Camerons films and still have the great characterisations that he is known for intact I wouldn't argue about this. But the fact is, he doesn't. There's no one else that makes films on the same technical and visual level as Cameron does right now.

[Edited last by andreasingo on October 04, 2001 at 06:12 PM]

[Edited last by andreasingo on October 04, 2001 at 06:14 PM]

Chuck Mayer · 10-04-2001, 08:22 PM

I personally don't equate smart dialogue with a complex story. I don't find "complex" movies superior to simple ones. It doesn't make you smarter to like a Miramax film over a Universal summer movie (nor does it equate to better taste). The dialogue in Titanic suits the story. It certainly isn't perfect, but it obviously connected with a lot of people to make that much money. That doesn't mean it connected with everyone. But I consider myself an intelligent filmgoer, and it worked for me. So it isn't a matter of intelligence. It's a matter of personal taste. I don't like the insinuations that if you like Titanic and it's love story, you must be a simpering teenage girl or an idiot. That's an amusing stereotype. Like thinking everyone who cares about home theater is a snob and a bore. Neither are true. As for directors, Cameron is one of the best. But for my money, the best visual director in the business is David Fincher. I like Scorcese, but I didn't connect with the characters in Goodfellas, but that doesn't mean the movie didn't work. And I don't make statements about those that like the film in a condescending way.

Take care,
Chuck

andreasingo · 10-04-2001, 08:53 PM

Too Chuck.

I agree David Fincher is one of the best visual directors out there but even if his films looks incredible you don't get that same "Cameron factor" of being there. Something is not exactly right with the physics. It's a certain physical *and* visual presence in cameron films that sucks you right in. You know what I talk about?

Examples of this: The Alien Queen fight in Aliens, Arnolds MIG outside the highrise in True Lies, The underwater chase in "The Abyss". There are dokumentary detail in those images.

Brad_W · 10-04-2001, 10:35 PM

Quote:
you don't get that same "Cameron factor" of being there.
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I agree, while Fincher is awesome, Cameron makes you feel apart of something/part of the film. The grittiness of some of his movies make me want to take a shower. Though, I did want to stop eating after watching 7.

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Mike Broadman · 10-05-2001, 11:10 AM

andreasingo, I think I miscommunicated what I meant about "caring about the characters," because I agree with what you said in your post, especially about Barry Lyndon, so I'll try to clarify.

Caring about the characters doesn't mean liking them, which was what I think you thought I meant. Sometimes it does, but not always. I cared about what happened to Barry Lyndon, but of course I didn't like that jerk. What's great about him is that I did like him in the beginning, when he was a doofy innocent kid, but you get to see him turn into a jerk, and you just have to know how it all ends for him.

I cared about the Taxi Driver, too, even though he was a nut-job. Like Barry Lyndon, he had a good mix of vulnerability and ambition that was realistic. Kubrick and Scorcese have the most real and interesting characters as far as I'm concerned: the Taxi Driver, Hal 9000, the main characters from A Clockwork Orange and Goodfellas, Lolita's stepfather, Jack.

So, I hold that in order to have a great film, you have to care about the characters in some fashion. Cameron of course tried to do that. Cameron's and Spielberg's method of getting the audience to care about the characters is to get us to like them. It's a safer, but perfectly valid approach. In Titanic it failed, in Terminator it worked. That sort of thing usually doesn't work for me, because I guess I'm too cynical. Kubrick, Scorcese, and Stone (who I don't like) make us care because the characters connect to our darker tendencies, allowing us to relate on a more primal level. It's just a different way of doing things, and I guess I'm glad that the variety is out there.

Dome Vongvises · 10-05-2001, 01:51 PM

Titanic was a lot like Annie Hall for me. I had to overcome a lot of things in order to finally get to be able to see this movie. I couldn't help but think, "Gyahh, any movie that a bunch of horny female teeny boppers whose opinions change a mile a minute can't be good." But due to forces not of my doing, a copy of Titanic was handed to my family. I gave the movie a chance, and I was pleasantly surprised by it. It had that touch of an epic to it (must be the 3 hour running time). Besides its easily accesible love story, the movie could be better appreciated for its cinematography and technical merits. Overall, a film score of B+ (I hate the four star system). But there were some things in this thread that I'd like to address

Quote:

I dislike Titanic because its characters are incredibly one-dimensional and the writing is trite.

This criticism, particularly the one about one-dimensional characters, puzzles me. Lots of great characters through movie history are one dimensional. Being one-dimensional is not a bad thing. Take a look at Hannibal Lecter from Silence of the Lambs. He's pretty one-dimensional for just being evil/sadistic. But he's a great character because of a fantastic performance/portrayal by Anthony Hopkins. If anything about the characters in movies should be looked at, in this case Titanic, its their portrayal/performance by the actors. As far as I'm concerned, Billy Zane and the old woman were the only "above adequate" performances in the movie. I think that instead of criticizing one-dimensional characters, we oughta praise multi-dimensional characters instead. As for the writing, I'll have to agree with you on that one, but again, I must say that Cameron's direction in the movie helped overcome a lot of those problems.

Quote:

1997 had a lot of great movies...Face/Off, Contact, LA Confidential, Batman and Robin (just making sure you are actually reading this), and so on.

You sure got my attention with that Batman and Robin mention

Quote:

And lastly, accessibility can be a good thing. Many high-minded people feel that complexity of meaning and dialogue equate to depth. That is not always (or even often) the case. The sheer simplicity of a story can be beautiful on it's own.

WELL I'LL BE DAMNED!!! Somebody was able to articulate some of my feelings about some of the greatest qualities of movies. Somewhere in the past few years, it's been lost on people that movies are supposed to tell stories to an audience. And when you're able to tell a story that reaches out to a lot of people, then you've done a spectacular job.

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andreasingo · 10-05-2001, 03:11 PM

Mike, I agree about everything you said in your last post.

Even if I didn't care for Barry he was so well written that I just had to know what happened to him. I also agree Scorcese and Kubrick are the masters when it comes to realistic and multi-dimensional characters.

As for Cameron, I also agree that the characters in the terminator films were better written than the characters in Titanic. As for Camerons best character work I have to say The Abyss is his best. I also happen to think that film is his best film overall but that the ending is his worst...

Tim Glover · 03-20-2006, 01:09 PM

Well, I did a Slowest Search Possible Search and couldn't find an official discussion thread or review thread for Titanic...back in '97-98 the HTF was just getting started. :b

Figured this was as good a place as any to discuss my 2006 assessment of Titanic.

It's been years since I really sat down and watched the whole movie. My daughters and I watched this on Friday night...I remember going down to Suncoast Motion Picture Company and grabbing the widescreen vhs version and watching it several times, as well as the laserdisc version a year later. Even bought the hard to find dts laserdisc edition desperately trying to re-live the 70mm DTS theatrical experience. One thing that is unmistakable and that is nothing on home video has EVER come close to capturing the image or sound compared to what I heard and saw at the Northpark Theater in Dallas, Texas.

I've got a pretty great system too. Still the new dvd looks and sounds terrific-even compared to newer mixes of today. Those guys who put together Titanic's mix knew what they were doing.

On to the film: We watched this Friday night and I remembered why I love this film. I remembered why Titanic is in my top 4 or 5 films of all time. The score is masterful and remains a masterpiece. The vfx remain effective. The performances are top notch...I think what makes Titanic work so well is the relationship between Jack and Rose. This could have easily been cheezy (Like Pearl Harbor) or just overdone. For Titanic to work, we have to believe in this relationship and that's why Titanic succeeds. I don't think Leo and Kate got or get enough credit for their performances. Perhaps the sheer spectacle of the film overshot them but they had such screen presence and were mesmerizing to watch.

The other thing to mention is how great Gloria Stuart was as the older Rose. I once said that she was the film's anchor. (pardon the pun). I still believe that today. When she spoke there was such elegance and a captivation of the audience that I don't think has been seen before. Everytime she was on screen I was more aware of how much I liked her. IMO, she should have won for supporting actress over Kim Basinger but that's not really important. Gloria Stuart was incredible in this film.

The ending of Titanic might be the best ending of all time. The sequence of her walking slowly toward the end of the ship with the music playing is one of my most cherished cinematic moments. Then as she lays there in bed "joining" Jack gives me goose bumps and tears.

Fantastic movie. I think it will stand the test of time for another generation to marvel at.

Chuck Mayer · 03-20-2006, 01:22 PM

My sister has recently introduced her 4 year old daughter to Titanic. I'm sure that will replicate itself to some extent, just as it did for boys and Star Wars.

Her thoughts on the film were rather amusing. Morbid little girl

This was the first thread I ever started, and it managed to stay civil for it's short run. Even has my first sig (how original) and red x's for my smileys.

I still love the movie as much now as I did then. As much as I did in 1997. I was thrilled with the DVD SE last year, and I eagerly await an HD/Blu-Ray copy of the film.

Tim Glover · 03-20-2006, 02:29 PM

This was really the first viewing for my daughters too. They are 14 and 12. They've seen part of it before but not like this. My oldest and my youngest too are still brooding over Jack's death. :b They both teared up over my favorite Titanic moment...when Jack, and later Cal, convince Rose to take the boat for safety. Slowly her boat decends, music playing, seeing Jack with the ship's flares going off in the background, and then her decision to not leave him is a gut wrenching and eye watering moment. When Jack started saying, "Rose, your so stupid etc.." they both had major tears flowing.

I forgot to mention that the next day, I think we heard the cd soundtrack about a zillion times. The Back to Titanic version with dialogue too. Finally, I proclaimed either change cds or I will contemplate suicide.

Just kidding. :b

Another actor who deserves mentioning is Victor Garbor. He was the perfect choice for that role and I loved how Rose and he connected. Understated and yet conveyed real power.