[JohnRice]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveGon

Saw this last night as well and found it awfully disappointing. Stupid plotting, bad direction (final third of the film) and characters I just didn't give a damn about.

And I love sci-fi.

No kidding. I am completely with you on this one. It has sick, feeble aspirations of being in even the same league as films like Solaris and The Fountain. I admit that early on I was thinking it was kind of an artsy SF piece like Soderbergh's Solaris, but without the slightest hint of purpose. It was just similar in look and pacing. And are you guys (James B most of all) serious when you say this is hard or adult SF? Excuse me!?! That final scene? Do we need to explain the physics of...

Spoiler:

existing in the center of a star, dying or not, regardless of what technology is involved?

Yeah, hard SF. RIGHT! And that's just beginning. This is a complete, muddled mess and real disappointment.

[L. Anton Dencklau]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnRice

without the slightest hint of purpose. It was just similar in look and pacing. And are you guys (James B most of all) serious when you say this is hard or adult SF? Excuse me!?!

I've had this exact conversation with several of my friends after watching it. Focusing on the science & mechanics of the ship and the fissile materials of "re-igniting the sun" is completely missing the point of the film.

Considering the plot revolves around the obstacles a group of scientists encounter traveling en route to the sun to bring hope to the earth... I don't think I need to draw an arrow to point out: this is metaphor. You may disagree with it, or even have, say, a "No True Scotsman" interpretation of it, but the film to me seems pretty pointedly clear in the philosophical area.

If it was just that, I would be predisposed towards it, but its not. It makes this argument with a strongly emotional display of sound and wonder and light and color and tactile sensation and sadness and achievement and sacrifice and hope and resilience. I saw it several times theatrically & I don't know that it will have the same impact on the home theater, but no matter the format- the content is, to me, downright inspirational.

Is it Adult Sci-fi? I would say so. I wouldn't limit the audience to adults though. I think it could provoke fascinating discussions amongst teenagers/high school age.

In a year filled with lots of good films, Sunshine is at the top of my list. I'm sort of amazed and thankful they were even able to make it.

[Felix Martinez]

Wow. Really disappointed by this one. After a riveting and "serious" first half, I never expected it to plummet to something less satisfying than Event Horizon.

[JohnRice]

Anton, I loved both Soderbergh's Solaris and The Fountain. One of my absolute favorite current directors is Tom Tykwer. I assure you, I understand metaphor. The problem is, when the vehicle used to deliver the metaphor is so convoluted and mucked up in mechanics and confusion then, for me at least, it collapses. Notice I had no problem with the "mechanics" of The Fountain, which are almost entirely unscientific. Sunshine throws in everything but the kitchen sink, uses a bunch of neat looking, but ultimately tiresome visuals and obscuring tricks, in my opinion, to hide the fact it is nothing but the seed of an idea that is horribly realized.

The only reason the scientific implausibility bothered me is because by the time those elements came around, the incompetent narrative had completely removed me from the "story" and I was left looking for something to focus my attention on.

[L. Anton Dencklau]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnRice

The problem is, when the vehicle used to deliver the metaphor is so convoluted and mucked up in mechanics and confusion then, for me at least, it collapses.

Quote:

Originally Posted by L.AntonDencklau

You may disagree with it, or even have, say, a "No True Scotsman" interpretation of it, but the film to me seems pretty pointedly clear in the philosophical area.

yeah. Again, I disagree that the metaphor is in any way convoluted or falls apart. I think we're in agree to disagree mode here. I can't really argue this point further because it treads to closely the HTF rules.

Quote:

Sunshine throws in everything but the kitchen sink, uses a bunch of neat looking, but ultimately tiresome visuals and obscuring tricks, in my opinion, to hide the fact it is nothing but the seed of an idea that is horribly realized.

The point is the context. The idea behind trotting out the 2001, alien, etc tropes is that they are put into the service of the message of the film. It sounds a bit like you're in a "kill the messenger" mode. You may not be. But considering this statement:

Quote:

The only reason the scientific implausibility bothered me is because by the time those elements came around, the incompetent narrative had completely removed me from the "story" and I was left looking for something to focus my attention on.

Case in point. If you disagree with the message, you are also actively looking for a reason to pick it apart. And that's fine. I did the same thing with No Country For Old Men, which is a fantastic film that I completely disagree with.

[JohnRice]

Actually, my problem is not with the message, but the lack of any meaningful message, or just how feeble I find the "message" to be.

I also don't know how arguing the strengths/weaknesses of the movie tread on HTF rules. This section and this thread are for the discussion of movies.

Quote:

If you disagree with the message, you are also actively looking for a reason to pick it apart.

I suspect the "you" is used as a general term, because that is the last thing I do. I appreciate a well argued point I disagree with as much as one I agree with. My problem is I find the "message" virtually nonexistant and feebly presented.


It's quite interesting to me you keep telling me that I don't understand the message of the film, don't like the message and therefore look to pick it apart and so on. Don't assume you know my thought process. Plus, after all this, you have never really said what this obvious message is that we should all be so clear on. I am just saying that both the message and delivery are weak, plus the narrative is a complete mess.

[L. Anton Dencklau]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnRice

Actually, my problem is not with the message, but the lack of any meaningful message, or just how feeble I find the "message" to be.

I also don't know how arguing the strengths/weaknesses of the movie tread on HTF rules. This section and this thread are for the discussion of movies.

-->4. No politics or religion. We do not permit the discussion of politics or religion at HTF. However, there is a narrow exception to this rule. If the subject matter of a movie or television show includes politics and/or religion, then they may be discussed insofar as they pertain to that specific movie or television show. We stress, however, that such discussions are carefully monitored and will be moderated if it appears that any participant is using this narrow exception to introduce a broader political or religious discussion than is warranted by the movie or television show under discussion. Also, anyone who has not seen a particular movie or television show is disqualified from discussing its political and/or religious content under this rule.

[L. Anton Dencklau]

I'm on my way out the door here, but I'll be happy to continue this later. If you like we can go to PM to further discuss it.

[JohnRice]

Quote:

Originally Posted by L. Anton Dencklau

-->4. No politics or religion. We do not permit the discussion of politics or religion at HTF. However, there is a narrow exception to this rule. If the subject matter of a movie or television show includes politics and/or religion, then they may be discussed insofar as they pertain to that specific movie or television show. We stress, however, that such discussions are carefully monitored and will be moderated if it appears that any participant is using this narrow exception to introduce a broader political or religious discussion than is warranted by the movie or television show under discussion. Also, anyone who has not seen a particular movie or television show is disqualified from discussing its political and/or religious content under this rule.

Like I said...

Forest for the trees.

The word "God" is specifically emphasized in the movie, so in the context of the movie, it is certainly allowed. It is only a problem for HTF when people start editorializing, harping or generally going overboard.

[L. Anton Dencklau]

well, John, let me guide you out of the forest here.

I was and am (I think understandably) wary of taking the discussion here not only because of the religion aspect, but for the very reason you listed here: editorializing, harping and going overboard. Your posts have contained phrases like

Quote:

sick, feeble aspirations

serious when you say this is hard or adult SF? Excuse me!?!

it is nothing but the seed of an idea that is horribly realized.

That tone doesn't exactly suggest an openness to discussion. But, you know, we like movies, we don't like movies, & we can get passionate about them. So, thats great. Lets have the discussion and let the mods make the calls.


When considering Sunshine, you have the story of a self contained group of of astronauts and scientists. The opening narration explains that the "sun is dying" - but not why the sun is dying. Only that "the mission is to re-ignite the sun". We are heading out on an existential journey in more ways than one here: On the plot level, failing the mission is tantamount to an eventual extinction of humanity. Its even pitched in apocalyptic tones: "that payload is the last best hope". We are on a journey that others have taken before, and failed. We are exploring without certainty ("we don't know if its going to work".) We are discussing and arguing what the best methods are. We are trying to improve on our knowledge of why the predecessors failed. When confronted with thorny moral questions, we make choices based not based on majority rule, but on trying to determine what is the most rational approach given our available knowledge.

All throughout