Michael Mann's MIAMI VICE (merged) - Page 14

Brett_M · 08-02-2007, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonZ

"The last thing that gave it a strike was it's connection to the TV show: a dumb, mediocre TV show (IMHO). It's a punch line."

I dont dislike the show. Some episodes are very good and some are bad. But the show was never really realistic. It was about style, atmosphere and such, while the movie really ttries to show what it might be like for 2 guys to work undercover in real life. Theyre very different.

"The argument that it has no plot or story is ludicrous."

Yea it is.

It really is one of the better crime films of recent years.

Id actually like to see more of them. Miami Vice trilogy!

I agree. .

ChrisWiggles · 08-03-2007, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard--W

Thanks everyone for your good replies.

I'd like to get more feedback from the membership, please.

Let's stay focused on the question posed in Post 373: what went wrong with MIAMI VICE ?

As I think I pointed out way earlier in the thread, I think people were expecting a kind of Bad Boys film, not a more mature film as Mann's films are. I think it also, because of it's kitschy Miami Vice link, turned off the kind of audience that appreciates Mann's films. My father, for instance, really enjoys and appreciates Mann's films, especially the Insider, Ali, and Collateral. Yet when I asked if he wanted to go see Miami Vice, it was a resounding no, it just seemed like a big action film rather than a Mann film. So I think the audience it grabbed was a kind of mainstream action-film audience who do not expect or want intelligent character films, and many people oddly enough found it boring or confusing.

I personally, thought it had many moments of genius, and some absolutely fantastic scenes, and was visually incredible. As a whole, I think Mann needed to slow the film down more in the second half. He moved this film very quickly, and it got a bit aways from the characters, especially the female characters who were not as strong as they could have been. Thinking about it now, I realize that all of Mann's films really have a very strong male-dominated cast(obviously dealing with crime and the like), and it was interesting to see strong female characters for once, but we didn't really see enough of them I thought. I think a longer film actually would have left more time for us to see the characters interact more, as most of their relationships are established extremely fast and with all the small details (which still worked quite well IMO). What I REALLY appreciate about Mann in so many of his other films is that they have a great deal of down-time in the film, where tension builds and then the film basically comes to a stop, a kind of time for the characters to think inwardly,and it's a also time for the audience to really get into the heads of the characters, and these are among my favorite moments in Mann's films. Russell Crowe alone in a hotel room thinking about his family in the Insider, the main character in Manhunter staring directly into the camera thinking, Ali running through the streets, Tom Cruise stopped and staring at the wolf in the middle of the street, etc. I love those moments when the characters are coming to terms with what's going on around them and what they're going to do, and the pace of Miami Vice especially in the second half left no room for that kind of thing, and I thought a longer film actually would have allowed for more time to see the characters interacting in more mundane kinds of ways. Most of Mann's films work that way, we remember the fantastic action, but we forget that most of his films are pure drama, only briefly breaking into violence as the conflict resolves or spills over, and I think Miami Vice as a whole was too much of the moments of building conflict breaking into violence and not enough of the downtime in between all that where we're allowed to really see the characters interacting. We see some of that, but it's extremely compressed and fast, in order to move the plot along, too quickly in my opinion. If you consider that Miami Vice has a plot that is at least as complicated as Heat, you also realize that Heat was a much longer film as a result, and I think a film of that length would have allowed the drama which is the high point in Mann's work, the space it really deserves.

Brett_M · 08-03-2007, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles

As I think I pointed out way earlier in the thread, I think people were expecting a kind of Bad Boys film, not a more mature film as Mann's films are. I think it also, because of it's kitschy Miami Vice link, turned off the kind of audience that appreciates Mann's films. My father, for instance, really enjoys and appreciates Mann's films, especially the Insider, Ali, and Collateral. Yet when I asked if he wanted to go see Miami Vice, it was a resounding no, it just seemed like a big action film rather than a Mann film. So I think the audience it grabbed was a kind of mainstream action-film audience who do not expect or want intelligent character films, and many people oddly enough found it boring or confusing.

I personally, thought it had many moments of genius, and some absolutely fantastic scenes, and was visually incredible. As a whole, I think Mann needed to slow the film down more in the second half. He moved this film very quickly, and it got a bit aways from the characters, especially the female characters who were not as strong as they could have been. Thinking about it now, I realize that all of Mann's films really have a very strong male-dominated cast(obviously dealing with crime and the like), and it was interesting to see strong female characters for once, but we didn't really see enough of them I thought. I think a longer film actually would have left more time for us to see the characters interact more, as most of their relationships are established extremely fast and with all the small details (which still worked quite well IMO). What I REALLY appreciate about Mann in so many of his other films is that they have a great deal of down-time in the film, where tension builds and then the film basically comes to a stop, a kind of time for the characters to think inwardly,and it's a also time for the audience to really get into the heads of the characters, and these are among my favorite moments in Mann's films. Russell Crowe alone in a hotel room thinking about his family in the Insider, the main character in Manhunter staring directly into the camera thinking, Ali running through the streets, Tom Cruise stopped and staring at the wolf in the middle of the street, etc. I love those moments when the characters are coming to terms with what's going on around them and what they're going to do, and the pace of Miami Vice especially in the second half left no room for that kind of thing, and I thought a longer film actually would have allowed for more time to see the characters interacting in more mundane kinds of ways. Most of Mann's films work that way, we remember the fantastic action, but we forget that most of his films are pure drama, only briefly breaking into violence as the conflict resolves or spills over, and I think Miami Vice as a whole was too much of the moments of building conflict breaking into violence and not enough of the downtime in between all that where we're allowed to really see the characters interacting. We see some of that, but it's extremely compressed and fast, in order to move the plot along, too quickly in my opinion. If you consider that Miami Vice has a plot that is at least as complicated as Heat, you also realize that Heat was a much longer film as a result, and I think a film of that length would have allowed the drama which is the high point in Mann's work, the space it really deserves.

Your insight is keen. Awesome post.

Seth Paxton · 08-04-2007, 06:23 AM

Miami Vice is pushing to be my favorite Mann film after several viewings.

However this post is about something I saw in Heat the other day while watching it again. Okay, obviously the theme of that film is the parallel lives of DeNiro and Pacino, how they are twins on opposite sides of the law. But this method of showing it escaped me somehow till this viewing.

When they have them staked out on the safety deposit or whatever it is that the crew bails on when a cop lets his gun hit the stakeout truck's wall with a bang, Mann uses the over the shoulder technique to create a fake "meeting" or confrontation/staredown. Pacino looks at the infared surveillence and we watch from behind him while DeNiro stares directly in the direction of the camera so that it looks like they are looking at each other.

But the part I never thought about though it's obvious is that due to the heat vision DeNiro is also shown in a sort of an inverted light/dark spectrum, like the negative exposure almost. Very crafty and I'm certain quite intentional. The positive and negative images looking at each other.

He doesn't hide that theme of course, many scenes are pretty obviously comparative examples, but stuff like this example shows how good he is at keeping it in the subtext too

Coming back to Miami Vice, I think it's unfair to look for character moments completely because I think the theme of the film is the process and how far you are required to go rather than the toll it takes on you. And even then you do get reflection on it at the end when Sonny has to let her go (not unlike how DeNiro has to walk away from his girl in Heat).

But mostly it felt intentional that there was no breathing room, no time to get your footing. These guys must be acting and reacting at full speed the entire time or it's disaster.

Obviously I'm ready for more of them myself. I love Foxx working with Mann first off, and I thought Farrell nailed his part, far more than I expected him too.

Nathan V · 08-04-2007, 01:05 PM

There are more 'Mann moments' in the director's cut. There's also a great Foxx-Trudy conversation in a diner that strengthens their relationship a fair amount.

In any case, I think the reason this film moves faster is because the characters are in a constant, unending state of flux, dealing with shifting identities and stress and second-guessing themselves and everyone else at every turn. The Farrell character especially seems to be looking for some way out of this flux (see him as he breaks away from the condo conversation to stare out at the ocean), and he briefly finds it in the Gong Li segment of the film, a steady state of existence. Brilliantly, the film itself also feels as if it's settled into a relaxed, steady state here. But of course this can't last, and it's not long before they're thrust back into the flux. What's amazing is how relatable all of these dynamics are to our own lives, even though they seem very specific to the characters and situations at hand.

ChrisWiggles · 08-05-2007, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brett_M

In her defense, Gong Li had to learn her English lines phonetically. She does not speak the language and even in post (ADR) it was difficult for her to put the correct emphasis on the words as we say them. It's the same as you saying lines in Chinese phonetically and audience members saying "that movie stunk...mainly because Brent_M was so hard to understand

"

I think Mann actually should take a little bit of blame for this. I thought her body language at some points was fantastic, but because she doesn't speak english, there was a serious disconnect between her confidence that she presented physically (and then beautifully broke down with Crockett). I can understand why Mann would want to work with Gong Li, I'm a fan of her work in several chinese films like 2046 and Zhou Yu's Train, but I think she was an inapproprate choice for this film. Still, given the difficulties of the situation, I think she held her own damn well.

Chuck Mayer · 08-05-2007, 07:33 PM

I was quite pleased with Gong Li's performance. I always knew what she was saying, though her accent was thick. Maybe it's because I live in DC and hear quite a few accents. She a formidable actress, so I appreciated her presence in such a strong, muscular film. That part needed a heavyweight to register. She provided that.

Brett_M · 08-05-2007, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuck Mayer

I was quite pleased with Gong Li's performance. I always knew what she was saying, though her accent was thick. Maybe it's because I live in DC and hear quite a few accents. She a formidable actress, so I appreciated her presence in such a strong, muscular film. That part needed a heavyweight to register. She provided that.

I agree. I love her in this. She's got an incredible body, too.