Track the Films You Watch (2005) - Page 20

Michael Elliott · 04-03-2005, 04:25 PM

UNFORGIVEN is hands down the greatest western ever made IMO. I'm not going to go into a long, detailed post yet but it was the perfect end to the genre. I'm sure other westerns will follow (and have in POSSE and THE QUICK AND THE DEAD) but UNFORGIVEN took Ford, Hawks, Peckinpah, Leone and put a final on them. We've seen the western genre for one hundred year and this film took all that violence, rolled it into one film and said the end. We've often seen the hero walk off into the sunset and these films were often very violent but UNFORGIVEN picked it's story up years later when the violence had settled in and these characters were out of the action for a while. I think in order to fully appreciate the film you do need a pretty good knowledge of the western genre. Perhaps I'm seeing too much into it but I personally feel the film speaks in volumes.

As far as the spaghetti westerns go, I think the worst thing they ever did was turn people off of older westerns. I don't think that's the case here but Mario knows the forum I'm talking about where none of the older westerns are enjoyed and most say they are fake compared to the Leone films. I personally enjoy all three of the Leone films but find them highly overrated. I've only viewed them once and I've had the DVDs here for years and plan on getting back to them soon to see if my opinion has changed. ONCE UPON A TIME IN THE WEST is another I'd put on my greatest list and I do prefer Bronson to Eastwood in this role. Even saying that, I think Leone's best film was ONCE UPON A TIME IN AMERICA.

The Leone s. westerns are the best known but like the horror genre, many fans haven't really searched for the lesser known titles, which could be a good thing. Again, it depends on how much people are willing to view because the Leone films might be considered the best by mainstream America but there are hundreds of smaller titles out there for people to check out. Blue Underground and Anchor Bay has relased a few but the rest are only out there in R2 land. If people look down on the cult horror films from Europe then I'm not sure they'll enjoy these cult westerns.

I think the one film that has the strongest connection to UNFORGIVEN in terms of its message is THE OX BOW INCIDENT, which for some reason is pretty much forgotten by everyone including film buffs!!!! For the life of me I can't understand why this film isn't mentioned more when westerns come up. I can certainly understand why no one liked it back in the day but it looks like people would have came around to it by now. Perhaps people want to look at these cowboys as heroes (Wayne, Cooper, Douglas) and not as something a bit more than a one note character.

Some might be put off by the so-called racist character in THE SEARCHERS but this too would be high on my list. We could call all of these westerns racist in their ideas but that's a whole 'nother can of worms, which is a bit off topic.

As far as 1992 goes, THE CRYING GAME would be a close pick as the best for the year but in 2005, UNFORGIVEN is the clear winner. ALADDIN has also slipped due to seeing some silent versions, which were a lot better (and more magical).

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Arthur Penn’s THE MISSOURI BREAKS (1976; which was a notorious flop in its day despite starring Marlon Brando and Jack Nicholson).

Flop or not, MGM needs to get this out on DVD very fast. I personally enjoy this since it's easy to laugh at.

BTW Mario, you left off a couple westerns for the 1960's. We've got the legendary JESSE JAMES MEETS FRANKENSTEIN'S DAUGHTER and the John Carradine classic BILLY THE KID VS. DRACULA.

The Carradine flick is one you should search out since it was the best attempt at mixing the horror and western genre.

Haggai · 04-03-2005, 06:30 PM

Oy, Michael, did you really watch Manos the Hands of Fate without Joel and the Bots providing comic relief?

Joe Karlosi · 04-04-2005, 08:12 AM

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I've read your review of UNFORGIVEN (1992) on the IMDB and, of course, I'm glad that you gave it a ***1/2 (9/10) rating. However, I don't understand why, if you thought so highly of it, you still say it was a "dubious" Best Picture Oscar winner.

Mario, first let me say that you sure know your Westerns

I really liked UNFORGIVEN and I have it on my "to buy" list.
Maybe I was too heavy handed with my statement that it wasn't ripe for Best Picture, but I think that's partly because I expected something even greater from it, and on first view it was a little shy of **** for me. However, this is one movie I can easily see getting better and better each time I see it. You know I don't see that many "new" movies each year, but in 1992 I would say that SCENT OF A WOMAN would have been my choice for Best Picture, from those I remember from '92 that I saw -- and I'd even pick the excellent comedy MY COUSIN VINNY!

If you could list the contenders for the Oscar that year, I'd be interested in thinking about it some more.

I'm not generally a big western fan, but my favorites would now be: UNFORGIVEN, THE MAN WHO SHOT LIBERTY VALANCE, BUTCH CASSIDY AND THE SUNDANCE KID, HIGH NOON, THE OX-BOW INCIDENT, LITTLE BIG MAN and one that you didn't mention - WILL PENNY (Chuck Heston). To a lesser extent I also like Heston in ARROWHEAD and THE BIG COUNTRY. My first encounter with THE GOOD, THE BAD AND THE UGLY left me underwhelmed, though now that I've come to love "Tarantino's" KILL BILL saga and know how he borrowed so much from TGTBATU, maybe I'll need another viewing of that spaghetti western. As for THE SEARCHERS -- feh. And SHANE would be a double-feh.

Mario Gauci · 04-04-2005, 10:16 AM

Quote (originally posted by Robert Crawford):

"You have great taste in westerns, no matter which of those six titles you prefer."

Thanks for the kind words, Crawdaddy...but, if your "signature" is anything to go by, so do you

.

Quote (originally posted by George Kaplan):

"I can only speak for myself, but I find at least some spaghetti westerns (e.g., the man with no name trilogy) far better westerns than any of those three, all of which are tremendously overrated in my opinion. The fact that they weren't made by an American is irrelevant.

On the other hand, that's not because I don't think highly of American westerns, just not ones like the 3 you mentioned. I'm much more impressed with films like High Noon, My Darling Clementine, The Magnificent Seven, Butch Cassidy & the Sundance Kid, Unforgiven (the 2nd best picture of 1992 IMO, second only to Aladdin), and The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance, all of which are much better IMO, than the three you named."

Don't get me wrong, George: I've always loved all 5 of Sergio Leone's Westerns and, in time - mostly thanks to online Forums like the one I was alluding to in my original post - I've come to like several other exponents of the "Spaghetti" sub-genre: THE RETURN OF RINGO (1965), THE BIG GUNDOWN (1966), DJANGO (1966), A BULLET FOR THE GENERAL (1967), FACE TO FACE (1967) and DEATH RIDES A HORSE (1968) to name the most notable.

I was merely bringing forth my (arguably justified) impression that MANY American film fans tend to watch such foreign-language fare as gothic horrors, giallos, Spaghetti Westerns, peplums, etc. but, on the other hand, they wouldn't be caught dead watching anything by Robert Bresson, Carl Dreyer, Kenji Mizoguchi, Jean Renoir, etc. In other words, anything which has a modicum of "cult" potential is O.K. with them, but there's no place for arthouse (read boring, talky and obscure) movies in their film-watching diet. I've recently discussed this very same topic with Michael Elliott via e-mail but you folks can pitch in with your own reasons or arguments as to whether my impressions are right or not.

As for your alternatives to my "Top 3" Westerns, all of them would be hovering in there were I to list my Top 50 or whatever. Besides, apart from HIGH NOON (1952), they all form part of my DVD collection

.

george kaplan · 04-04-2005, 01:41 PM

MANY American film fans tend to watch such foreign-language fare as gothic horrors, giallos, Spaghetti Westerns, peplums, etc. but, on the other hand, they wouldn't be caught dead watching anything by Robert Bresson, Carl Dreyer, Kenji Mizoguchi, Jean Renoir, etc. In other words, anything which has a modicum of "cult" potential is O.K. with them, but there's no place for arthouse (read boring, talky and obscure) movies in their film-watching diet.

Hmm. I'll first admit that I have no idea what a giallo or a peplum is.

And I'll certainly agree that most Americans have never heard of Dreyer or the other directors you've listed, much less watch them. But I'm not sure I agree with the reasons for what you state. Restricting myself to spaghetti westerns, I seriously doubt if most Americans have even heard of any except the famous 4 by Leone. I'll agree those four films have many, many American fans, but I don't think it has anything to do with cult status. I think it's more that those films don't seem like foreign films. After all, there are no subtitles, and the main stars are famous American actors. Now, if the Good, the Bad & the Ugly starred Marcello Mastroianni and was only available in Italian with English subtitles, I don't think those films would be much more popular in the U.S. than a Dreyer or Renoir.

Michael Elliott · 04-04-2005, 03:02 PM

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I'll first admit that I have no idea what a giallo

Many people would give various defs but the lowdown is that a giallo (or gialli) is a mystery novel written on yellow paper. When it comes to films, Italy is the most popular when it comes to their giallos. Most famous would be Dario Argento, one of the writters on ONCE UPON A TIME IN THE WEST, who is known as the Italian Hitchcock.

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Oy, Michael, did you really watch Manos the Hands of Fate without Joel and the Bots providing comic relief?

Yes sir.

I enjoy MST3K somewhat but I'm not a die hard fan. I find that most of the films they mock are funny enough on their own so that's why I don't watch the show that often.

Haggai · 04-04-2005, 03:12 PM

Ah, but Manos is one of their most beloved episodes, have you seen that one where they make fun of it? An all-time classic.

Michael Elliott · 04-04-2005, 05:21 PM

I haven't seen that one but I'll add it to my Netflix. I've got RED ZONE CUBA coming tomorrow but I'm hoping the "film only" version is on there. I've heard it horrid but I'll watch anything with Carradine.

The best episode I've seen is LEGEND OF BOGGY CREEK 2 but I haven't picked up the box set because I'm not sure how much I'll like the other three movies included.

george kaplan · 04-04-2005, 09:36 PM

The Snake Pit

Not my cup of tea, but a great performance by Olivia De Havilland as a mentally disturbed woman (in various states from sane to very insane). Completely different than the ranting overacting by Vivien Leigh in Streetcar. Much more realistic, much more nuanced, much better in every conceivable way.

Adam_S · 04-05-2005, 03:28 AM

I bookended Sin City with the classic 1930s The Christmas Carol the other night, it was an oddly appropriate double feature (I'd started watching Carol and then it was decided me and friends should go catch a late City showing). Quite a delightful combo, I must say.

Dazed and Confused -

04/04/2005
OARLD

...'n' it's green too!

Damn, it's like a whole other world from what I experienced but so damned honest. This has almost no relevance to me but it rings so incredibly right. I had nothing to do with the panaceas of booze and bongs in high school or even now in college, but the comraderies, the communities, the friendships, the loose righton manner of capturing the high school teen experience nailed me to the floor while it kept me rolling with its sly humor. This is a masterpiece of comedy, drama, storytelling and emotion--it's worthy of Lubitsch or Wilder. And it's all done in a perfect, compact 105 minutes. Just brilliant every step of the way and probably the most perfect modern comedy I've seen.

Adam