AFI Lists - the new challenges - Page 2

george kaplan · 06-12-2003, 06:37 AM

I'm going to have to disagree with you a bit here Adam. First of all I think Patton is an even greater film than you do (don't know if you're using a 4 or 5 star system, but it certainly deserves the max in my opinion). On the other hand to minimize the slap, which is to minimize combat fatigue and to say that he doesn't deserve to be in the hospital with physically wounded soldiers, is to say that a soldier who's been mentally wounded doesn't deserve treatment or sympathy as much as one whose been physically wounded (and a physical wound is no guarantee of bravery, many a soldier has been shot while running away). I disagree with Patton and I disagree with you on this point, and while the times were different, and Patton's views were more common back then, they were backward enough to cause an uproar back then as they should have. Hell, the army was racially segregated back then, but it was still wrong.

Lew Crippen · 06-12-2003, 10:05 AM

Quote:

. I suppose I should be sympathetic, with a modern understanding and sympathy of 'battle fatigue' or 'shell shock' it is definitely a terrible thing that was unfortunately not taken seriously and misunderstood at this time.

Quote:

I disagree with Patton and I disagree with you on this point, and while the times were different, and Patton's views were more common back then, they were backward enough to cause an uproar back then as they should have.

And I disagree with Patton and Adam—and agree with George (Kaplan). To add just a couple of things to his post:

· Combat fatigue was understood at the time (though not by that name, nor perhaps with today’s sophistication)—in fact the term ‘shell shock’ to describe this, goes back at least to WWI, where the continual artillery bombardment during trench warfare gave rise to the term. Although the armies of the day often forced the unwilling over the top by shooting them if they did not obey orders, the phenomena of ‘shell shock’ was acknowledged (especially by the British) and victims were accorded much the same treatment and sympathy as those suffering from physical injuries. Don’t forget that Patton was an officer in WWI and would have had the opportunity to have come to the same understanding.
· While there may have been the 1940s version of some media frenzy in the reporting of this story and the reaction of the American public, a good many of the troops in combat or due to be shipped overseas had exactly the same reaction to this incident as the public at large.
· You can also read reasoned references to this incident in sources like A Soldier’s Story, Omar Bradley’s account of WWII. IIRC (and its been 20 years or so since I read this) he is both understanding of why Patton reacted as he did, but critical of his actions and his inability to control himself and his inability to understand.

My guess is that most who have served in the military are more understating than those who have not. But that’s just a guess.

Lew Crippen · 06-12-2003, 01:08 PM

Out of the 250 entries in the ‘Stars’ category, I have only seen 58 since September 2002.

edited to correct count

Adam_S · 06-12-2003, 01:12 PM

Just to rephrase a little, now that I've rested a bit and perhaps am a little more lucid. I can see both perspectives. There's certainly no question of the reality of shell shock or battle fatigue. Patton of course didn't believe in this, and I incorrectly assumed that his beliefs were indicative of a still fairly widely held belief (among the military) by WWII--the same attitude is displayed in Paths of Glory, a World War I film. George and Lew have pointed out this was not true. But based on that assumption of mine, I logically thought that keeping those injured psychically with, as Patton put it, "in this place of honor" would naturally be bad for morale as a whole and create resentment among the men, the sort of situation no commander would brook. The right thing to do, had this been the case would have been to have separate 'mental' hospitals. I'm not trying to condone or excuse Patton's words in this scene, but I think I was surprised that it had the impact it did at the time. Personnally I think that slapping of a private by a general would have been in the same ballfield as caning or whipping recalcitrant children by teachers, it's something I'd never think of condoning today, but I can understand that it was a different time place (and to a degree) culture when it did take place--when it meant something different. So for me, the slap was not the important thing, but the terrible things Patton said to him--but it seemed in the film that the slap was the more important.

I definitely missaid some things in my prior post (it was after 1AM after all, I hope this clears things up.

George, had I seen this on the big screen, it would have probably been four stars, but much of the impact of the film is lost watching a small screen presentation, even in surround sound. I use the four star system, and three stars is the range of highly recommended to a great film, and I nearly rated it 3.5, a Must See. My opinion of Lawrence of Arabia was enormously elevated by seeing it in 70mm, and I imagine I'd have a similar reaction to Patton in Dimension 150. But whereas Lawrence of Arabia is four stars (all time great, a classic), I didn't feel that Patton was up to quite a similar level, as they are both films about men who were living legends. But again this is based on one small screen viewing, and I think this is the sort of film that will improve with subsequent viewings.

Lew Crippen · 06-12-2003, 01:42 PM

Films that I’ve recently seen that are in the ‘Stars’ list are:

Astaire -- Top Hat
Bacall -- To Have and Have Not
Bergman -- Notorious
Bergman -- Spellbound
Bogart -- Maltese Falcon, The
Brando -- Godfather, The
Cagney -- Angels with Dirty Faces
Colbert -- Imitation of Life
Cooper -- Mr. Deeds Goes to Town
Crawford -- Women, The
Davis -- All About Eve
Dietrich -- Destry Rides Again
Dietrich -- Touch of Evil
Douglas -- Paths of Glory
Douglas -- Spartacus
Fonda -- Lady Eve, The
Gable -- Gone with the Wind
Gable -- Red Dust
Gable -- San Francisco
Garbo -- Grand Hotel
Garbo -- Ninotchka
Gardner -- Killers, The
Garland -- Wizard of Oz, The
Gish -- Intolerance
Grant -- Bringing Up Baby
Grant -- North by Northwest
Grant -- Notorious
Harlow -- Dinner at Eight
Hepburn, A -- Charade
Hepburn, K -- Bringing Up Baby
Holden -- Bridge on the River Kwai, The
Kelly, Gene -- Singin' in the Rain
Lancaster -- Killers, The
Leigh -- Gone with the Wind
Lombard -- My Man Godfrey
Lombard -- Nothing Sacred
Marx Brothers -- Animal Crackers
Marx Brothers -- Duck Soup
Marx Brothers -- Horse Feathers
Marx Brothers -- Monkey Business
Marx Brothers -- Night at the Opera, A
Monroe -- All About Eve
Olivier -- Rebecca
Olivier -- Spartacus
Peck -- To Kill a Mockingbird
Rogers -- 42nd Street
Rogers -- Stage Door
Rogers -- Top Hat
Stanwyck -- Lady Eve, The
Stewart -- Mr. Smith Goes to Washington
Stewart -- Vertigo
Tracy -- Captains Courageous
Wayne -- Searchers, The
Wayne -- Stagecoach
Welles -- Citizen Kane
Welles -- Magnificent Ambersons, The
Welles -- Third Man, The
Welles -- Touch of Evil

edited to add missing film

Dustin Woods · 06-12-2003, 11:47 PM

Well I've got a long way to go, but I'm going to get in on this challenge. My tally so far is:

Movies - 21 Seen
Laughs - 7 Seen (that's kind of sad)
Thrills - 26 Seen
Passions - 5 Seen (also sad, but these will probably be the last I get to, unless my GF wants to watch some)
Hero/Villain - 24 Seen

I'm not even going to touch the Stars lists right now, I've got enough homework to do with the above lists. I did get a start tonight with One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. I bought it today without having seen it, and boy am I glad I did. This film just blew me away. Jack gives one of the best performances I've seen from anyone. The score was outstanding. Just a great film, it moves into my Top Ten all time easily. Should be fun going through these lists, I'm sure I'll find other movies that have the same effect on me.

Lew Crippen · 06-13-2003, 01:31 PM

Hey Adam, don't forget to add me to your list.

Adam_S · 06-13-2003, 01:47 PM

I've changed up the first post a bit with links to what are probably the most helpful part of the thread. Many thanks to Jeff Gross for all his help.

-----------
100 Years 50 stars.
186 listings I've not seen, though it's probably closer to only a 120 or so distinct titles.
-----------

The African Queen -

½
Movies List
Passions List
Stars List - Humphrey Bogart
Stars List - Katherine Hepburn
OAR VHS - home theater

Simply and utterly fantastic, damn near perfect. In fact it may very well be perfect, I can't think of any flaws. A film I can't wait to see a restored print or dvd of. A wonderful time, simply a magnificent film. Hepburn and Bogey are at their very best, in my opinion.

I suppose if there is any flaw it is the abrupt shift in Hepburn--but I will personally dismiss that as stressful/traumatic mutual experiences bringing people together--and the occasional bit when the saccharine coming off Hepburn is a little too much and seems just a little bit funny and pulls me ever so slightly out of the film. But these are very minor. A wonderful experience, even on a terrible (compared to DVD) VHS that was supposedly restored, I can't wait for a real restored version, if only to glory in Jack Cardiff's photography.

Jeff Gross · 06-13-2003, 02:46 PM

Since a few people have taken up the AFI Stars challenge, I have updated the Master List and schedule to include those movies.

I have 146 movies to go on the Stars challenge.

Holadem · 06-14-2003, 06:48 PM

Sunset Boulevard

out of 4.

"I am big. It's the pictures that got small".

I had never read or heard of this line until today. Yet, the moment she uttered it I knew to an absolute certainty it had made history.

I am speechless. This is an absolutely brilliant film. This is why we watch classics.

High Noon

What the hell is this doing NOT on the S&S list? A character driven western? Who woulda thunk? I am not a big fan of the genre this one definitely transcends it. High Noon dangerously comes close to the Good the Bad and the Ugly as my favorite western although I will admit I haven't watched many of the classics of the genre (watched a lot as a kid, don't remember anymore...)

--
Holadem

Adam_S · 06-15-2003, 03:13 AM

All About Eve -

Movies List
Heroes and Villians List
Stars List - Bette Davis
Stars List - Marilyn Monroe
OAR DVD - home theater

I made the silly mistake of assuming that Bette Davis was playing Eve. Easy to make when the only Bette Davis film I've seen is the incredibly brilliant Mr. Skeffington, part of the reason this challenge is so useful is for gaffes like this. :-D

Simply an incredible film, with a jaw droppingly great script, and some stunning performances (good camerawork too). after having seen so many thirties films of late, many of which are wonderful (but they can get a little staid) this feels incredibly dynamic. The repartee and brilliant characterization and interaction; the flashback structure and the villiany of the titular character becoming unmasked in the final act--it's breathtaking. I'm wondering if this is the difference pre and post Citizen Kane? I've always known it was a milestone, but I was never quite so sure that it was really that incredibly significant, however there is a quality to All About Eve that is invigorating, the whole film is energized--as though the filmmakers weren't just making a picture, or mere entertainment, but that they were carefully crafting a film, creating art--as though the enormous potential of cinema were finally beginning to be exploited. You can feel Passion that was put into this picture, simply spectacular.

Adam