David Ren

Even if it is a financial choice, FILMMAKING IS A BUSINESS. THEY ARE THERE TO MAKE MONEY.

If I can sell a movie about three monkeys masturbating into a horse's ass for $100 million, I'd round up three horny monkeys and a horse ASAP.

If some of you on this forum ran a movie studio, you'd be bankrupt in 3 years, tops.

Sorry to be so crude but YOU GUYS HAVE NO UNDERSTANDING of the film industry. It doesn't matter if Zhang Ziyi has no name recognition. She has been on lots of big budget sets and is less likely to fuck up on set. A resume is extremely important in Hollywood.

Yes, they cast Ken Watanabe in Last Samurai but they also had Tom Cruise headlining it. And I know for a fact, Ken Watanabe completely BLEW EVERYONE AWAY at his audition.

I know everyone here had good intentions but the reason I'm personally offended by this thread is because I'm producing a film of a moderately sized budget about an Chinese American and we're courting a Korean actor to play him. I can't name him until we've officially locked him in but he is the ONLY young Asian actor with any name recognition right now. Even if we do cast him, a movie starring an Asian male would still be VERY RISKY. If we don't cast him, making a profit would be NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE.

Now, I've been an actor in Hollywood a few years now so I know the shit Asian actors deal with. If they were limited to only playing one ethnicity, they would audition once every three months. Building a career would be impossible.

Some Asian actors blame Hollywood for lack of roles, racism, etc. and these actors are the ones who NEVER make it. The ones who do make it blame themselves, become better actors, make roles for themselves (by writing their own screenplays, making their own short films, etc.) They learn how to audition and cold read better.

I know many many actors who crash auditions and despite being wrong physically for the role, get the job because they completely blow them away. In my years in Hollywood, I know this: IF YOU COMPLETELY BLOW THEM AWAY, THEY WILL DO ANYTHING TO JUSTIFY CASTING YOU, DESPITE HOW YOU LOOK.

Now, since Yeoh, Gong, and Zhang are physically wrong for the role (they're Chinese), I would say they even had a disadvantage over the competition. The fact that they got the roles means they were MUCH BETTER than the other girls. THERE IS NO WAY THEY WOULD CAST THESE GIRLS WITHOUT AUDITIONING THEM FIRST. For a big budget movie like this, they probably read hundreds (thousands?) of girls. THIS MEANS, NO JAPANESE GIRLS BLEW THEM AWAY (in the Audition). If they did, they would have the parts.

This is not a matter of opinion. This is not "let's agree to disagree." This is pure common sense.

The simple fact is: you are grouping people by physical appearances. You are not seeing Gong, Zhang, Yeoh as individual women and what they can bring to the roles, you see them as a chinese, a malaysian, etc. How can you tell me that's not racist?

When I see a man, I see a man. I don't see a race, much less differentiate facial features to see which part of Eastern Asia they are from. Thinking like that promotes segregation and hatred.

If you say "my post is not racist or offensive" Well, I'm an Asian actor and I'M OFFENDED. If someone is offended by you, then you are offensive. - Would you agree with that logic?

RE: Mickey Rooney, Peter Sellers, etc., I thought they were hilarious! I am not a buck-toothed idiot and I don't have a fumanchu mustache, so why do I care how some Asian character in a movie is portrayed? Why do I care what other people think of my country? I embrace my culture. That's all that matters. And I'm able to laugh at myself. Mickey Rooney is fuckin' awesome.

"Miss Gorightry! I protest! You keep-a ringin' ma bell. You disturb-a me!"

ANY ASIAN ACTOR (AND ACTORS IN GENERAL) WOULD AGREE WITH ME. EVEN JAPANESE ACTRESSES.

Brian writes:


THANK YOU! CASE CLOSED! Now let's get something to eat.

David

Ernest Rister

"However, in the case of "Memoirs", this is a very specifically Japanese story. Geisha only come from Japan and their traditions are purely Japanese in their cultural origins. Because of this, I feel that Chinese actresses cannot fully do it justice."

That sounds just like racial prejudice to these ears -- Pre-judging someone's ability to play a part based solely on their race. Racial discrimination can come in all shapes and sizes, even from those with seemingly noble intent.

"...but if there were any geishas who were actresses then I would even argue that they would be the best to play the role."

Unless these geishas couldn't act!!! We all remember Nancy Kerrigan, the skilled ice skating Olympian...if they cast a movie about ice skaters, in your world, Tim, she would be at the top of the list. One problem, though -- she can't act. At all. She would be utterly useless, even if she was supposed to be playing herself in a film about her life.

Brett Favre is a highly-skilled quarterback for the Green Bay Packers. He was hired to play himself in There's Something About Mary. He was awful. Troy Aikman played himself in March of Dimes commercials. He looked and sounded like he was tranqed on Thorazine.

If I was making a movie about football or skating, I would hire an actor who could act the part of a football player, I would hire an actress who could act the part of a skater. You don't believe three actresses can play fictional Japanese characters, characters created in a fictional book written in English - by a middle-aged white American man, because the DNA of those actresses contain some DNA associated with the Chinese race. Far better to cast a Japanese woman. Surely she can act the part better than the Chinese women. Why? She's Japanese. Even better than the Japanese woman would be a real Geisha. Surely she can act better than all of these above.

Ernest Rister

"The simple fact is: you are grouping people by physical appearances. You are not seeing Gong, Zhang, Yeoh as individual women and what they can bring to the roles, you see them as a chinese, a malaysian, etc. How can you tell me that's not racist?"

That's what I mean by the classic flaw in progressive policies concerning race. The intentions are good-hearted, but the end result is more segregation, more division, more racism.

David Ren

You are so right! In fact, I feel that only Chinese people should play Mahjongg. Mahjongg comes from China and their traditions are purely Chinese in their cultural origins. Because of this, I feel that Non-Chinese players cannot fully do the game justice.



Yes, I agree. Hitler should've played himself in the numerous WWII movies. I'm sure he would've done a fine job and would've won numerous Academy Awards by now.

Do you not understand the concept of ACTING? Do you not understand ARTISTIC FREEDOM? Do you think making Fahrenheit 9/11 is wrong because it is "insensitive" to the half of the country that is Pro-Bush? Do you not understand the concept of "making money"?

If not, are you a communist? It's okay if you are. I won't judge you.

Brian, Tim, and any others,

Give me your home phone numbers and I will get the entire cast of Better Luck Tomorrow to call you and tell you you're wrong.

David

Ernest Rister

Sweet! Can I give you someone else's home phone number and have the cast of Better Luck Tomorrow crank call them?

(tomorrow's headline: GARY BUSEY RECEIVES NUMEROUS LATE NIGHT CALLS FROM ANGRY ASIAN ACTORS -- W.T.F. WAS THAT ABOUT? SAYS CONFUSED ACTOR)

David Ren

LOL

JonZ

"Which is why I dont think its a big deal really."

If a Irish man can be considered for James Bond, or Batman or a Black man can play Kingpin, etc - Thats why its called acting.

I think Japanese women have a look that is different from other Asian women,and I would have liked for Japanese to be cast for the film, but it doesnt really bother me.

george kaplan

So who'd be better in the role? A white woman, born in and living in Japan who has made a study of Geisha, and even wrote her doctoral dissertation on the subject, or a woman of pure Japanese heritage, born and raised in the United States with no knowledge of Geisha whatsoever? In other words, is it physical appearance or cultural knowledge/identity that is most important here?

"Movies should be like amusement parks. People should go to them to have fun." - Billy Wilder

"Subtitles good. Hollywood bad." - Tarzan, Sight & Sound 2012 voter.

"My films are not slices of life, they are pieces of cake." - Alfred Hitchcock

"My great humility is just one of the many reasons that I am vastly superior to everyone else." - Ramrod Clerk

Lew Crippen

You beat me to it George.

¡Time is not my master!

Brian Thibodeau

NOW I'm saying I can't establish the difference?!? When exactly did I say it was an exact science and the ONLY one someone should use when trying to discover someone's country of origin? Spare me the long look down those noses. I can only apologize for being one of those regular Joe's who really doesn't know the intricate workings of the Hollywood system but finds human faces fascinating. When I see a man (or a woman), I too see a man or a woman. Many times, though, I'd love to know where that person's from. If I make someone's casual acquaintance, there's a good chance that somewhere through the first conversation, I might inquire about their heritage. That's just me. I'm nosy. I'm not racist. People fascinate me. They can be as proud of their heritage as they want. And if they don't want to tell me, figuring me for some ignorant hick who shouldn't even have to ask, so be it. As to the “Japanese or Chinese” answer, well, I was covering my bases, but it remains to be seen if either if correct. Looking back a second time, I’d say he’s Chinese. My inner voice told me the third person was mixed, but as I mentioned in that post, photos of mixed-race kids wouldn’t esactly be fair since this entire issue is not about mixed-race actresses. Nonetheless, my only alteration of that guess would be that she’s White and Chinese. And I stand by my guess that #4 is Vietnamese (but I can't rule out other South Asian possibilities).



Nice circular reasoning, David. But fine, some of us, no doubt myself included judging by your recent posts, offended you, and for my part in that, you have my apologies. But plenty of people here were not offended by the same remarks. Therefore, that makes me offensive to some, not to others., just like the vast majority of people who post about sensitive, divisive topics like these. It's not intentional, in that you can rest assured, but it's inevitable in situations like these. But heck, David, you put me in my place way back on page one:



I got your point then, I get it now. I'm not one of you, so I really shouldn't have any say in the matter, right?

And I don't have experience in Hollywood, nor would I ever truly want it, but I'm not sure how to read what you're NOT saying in this statement:



Am I to assume Japanese actors and actresses (or other nationalities), due to their unfamiliarity with precious large-budget Hollywood film sets, are known to "fuck up" the environment and are therefore considered too high risk to be utilized?



Honestly, these are very good points, although in light of this:



...I guess we know which concept will guide you when your day arrives (and from your passionate responses, I'm sure it will). Sounds like Gary Busey's available. You're right, though, when it comes right down to it, it's about making money. Artistic freedom? Well... If you we're making the GEISHA movie and your producers or studio execs or whoever came to you and said "monkeys spunking into horse's asses are all the rage, kid, we gotta get that into the picture," you'd likely not have much choice in the matter. Then again, neither would I or anyone else. Obviously, common sense says this won't happen, but I'm sure plenty of compromises would have to be made on an artistic level, unless you're small enough that no one interferes or big enough to get final cut.

As to this whole audition process for GEISHA, I don't think anyone knows for sure just who auditioned for those roles. Some, like me, suspect these actresses were chosen not because of their recognition among middle-America, but for their name value among film congnoscenti as well as the awareness in the world film industry in comparison to equally talented but lesser known Japanese actresses who may or may not have been given an opportunity. Some, like you, suspect that these actresses got the parts because they were THE BEST talent for the parts, above any and all others who auditioned for the roles. Either side holds water, in my opinion, but when I look back at the plethora of articles and books I've read where directors and producers knew exactly - EXACTLY - who they wanted for key roles and auditions were still held for no other reason than "just in case" or to satisfy the "process," I still get that creeping feeling that these filmmakers simply went with three of the most visible Asian faces on the market (the fact that Maggie Cheung was considered, if that's true, makes it four). Even though middle-America, or even most Americans, might not be familiar with them, studio marketing will make them feel like they should be familiar with them from those movies they've heard name-checked in other theatrical and video trailers so many times (CROUCHING TIGER, RAISE THE RED LANTERN). I guess we'll have to wait until this blows up a little bigger to discover more details about the casting process, but come the fuck on, not ONE Japanese woman was worthy of a lead role? Obviously not, when its so much easier to cast the two leads from the most popular "Asian" film to date AND the one-time queen of Asian arthouse cinema. Ang Lee and Zhang Yimou did all their work for them.



Obviously, I can't disagree with you here, nor would I try, for from what I've read over the years (up to and including this thread), actors of virtually ALL nationalities have to play outside those nationalities if they want to put food on the table. Probably one of the reasons I could never take the career path you've chosen. I'll never believe the actual work is harder than many other non-Hollywood jobs out there, but you have my sympathy when it comes to struggling to find that work, particularly those that ARE trying to make the situation better for themselves. On this issue, I'll concede partial defeat, but...

Needless to say, when Hollywood studios look to cast a big-budget adaptation of a best-selling book like GEISHA, and have the opportunity to pick from well-established actresses from other countries for the lead roles, they’re not exactly dealing with people who are struggling to survive in their industries, or people who will starve if they don't get those roles. You guys have even said it’s all about the money.

Sure, several "nobodies” might have been given a shot at these roles, but what logical chance would they have had against established actresses from EITHER country? Some, but not much. There are Japanese actresses who are just as big, perhaps even bigger, on their own soil as Michelle Yeoh, Gong Li and Zhang Ziyi are on theirs. In fact, with the Chinese and Hong Kong film industries currently in a seemingly endless slump, I’d say the Japanese actresses are employed on a MORE regular basis judging by the coverage I’ve been reading. No, that alone does not qualify them for roles in GEISHA, nor does it suggest particularly great awareness of those actresses outside of Japan, Asia and the Asian diaspora in the west.

When all is said and done though, the three actresses chosen have the largest profile to date of any Asian actresses around from a marketing standpoint, but that’s not saying much when you consider how many people have ACTUALLY seen the movies they’ve been in. Nonetheless, I believe they and a very few other possibilities were eyed for the roles before any audition was ever held. If one was held, it was to satisfy the process and probably resulted in filling of several secondary roles. If it comes out in the wash that this wasn’t the case, I’ll gladly admit I was wrong, but until then, I remain unconvinced by anyone on this board. The name recognition of those actresses ALONE has not been the reason they’ve been in any successful American movies, including CROUCHING TIGER or RUSH HOUR 2. Their successful Chinese pircures that HAVE been released here have been modest successes like SUPERCOP or treated like shit by companies like Miramaxe in the case of HERO, or relinquished to the arthouse circuit like virtually all of Gong Li’s movies. And yet, when all is said and done, those films GOT RELEASED in theatres, and a little exposure is better than none and that’s why they were chosen for the roles, plus the fact that they’ll lend a certain “westernized” feel to the production, much the way they did in CROUCHING TIGER, which was highly westernized in its dramatics (ask the writer!) in order not to alienate the American audience (more pandering to the ignorant!). I’ll wager good money that when we finally see it, GEISHA is authentic only in its location and technical trappings, but not in its character dynamics or motivations. Those expecting American-style melodrama will get just what they got in CROUCHING TIGER.