Ernest Rister

How do you discuss a horror film, without discussing the techniques and attitudes of the director?

How do you discuss an action film, without discussing the choreography and editing strategies of the director?

How do you discuss a romance, without noting the chemistry between the actors, or the wit of the script, or the tastes of the director in not pushing things into schmatlz?

How do you discuss a topical film that touches on modern politics, without discussing either the modern topics or the modern politics?

I can *completely* understand why the HTF editors and moderators want to keep the caustic modern American partisanship out of the discussion of modern film. I once read a post on a message board where a board member compared some villains in a film to previous American political leaders, and such talk has little to do with discussion of movies.

But what do you do when the movies in question are inherently partisan? Inherently political? How do the board members talk about them? How does the HTF protect itself, and not drop its standards? How does the HTF allow an open exchange of ideas on film, when the questions of the films themselves violate the standards of the HTF?

Films are becoming increasingly comparable to literature, and there are indeed some films that are not fiction, and not fact, but are instead opinions. They are not narratives, they are not documentaries, they are agitprop. Many do not know this but the first animated feature was not Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs (a personal favorite, but we'll let that go for now) -- the first animated features were created in South America, following in the traditions of the old political cartoons you see today in your morning papers. They were highly political and highly partisan, and perhaps that is why they are not remembered today...they had no relevance to future generations.

So, as modern culture reflects the times in which we live, and films more and more express political or even partisan viewpoints - where does the HTF go from here? How do they answer the riddle of non-discussion of politics or partisan films, while still iniviting an open discourse on modern filmmaking? What is the answer?

I don't know - I invite the board users and moderators to search for answer in a mature way without using any sort of partisan bias or using silly cheap pot shots, because this is actually an issue I feel this board and its users needs to promptly address.

How do you discuss a modern political/partisan film, without banning discussion of that film, or banning references to modern politics?

Should a new sub-board be created for highly political films, with a disclaimer added? I don't know. But I think this topic has been brewing under the surface the last six months, and maybe, it needs to be looked at, maturely and respectfully, by everyone.

Best regards,

ER3

Rob Gardiner

The other forbidden topic on this forum is religion, but when Gibson's PASSION appeared on the horizon, it was handled like this:

The mods asked the membership to behave themselves and keep the discussion relevant to the film. The membership complied. To my knowledge, no one's feelings were hurt, and no threads were closed.

I hope the same guidelines are followed when CELSIUS 488 1/3 comes out.

Tony_Ramos

Ernest:

I've butted up against this forum policy more than once, and a couple posts were deleted. It's almost as if, by discussing a political statement made by filmmakers, I am somehow making a political statement myself, or somehow am assumed to be offending other posters, even if that offense is not expressed.

I think we should be allowed to discuss filmmakers and their techniques, as well as the political messages in their films, as long as we do not make the arguments *personal* or take personal offense to them. and of course, any profanity or insults or anger expressed should be deleted.

I also think that trying to convince others not to like a certain filmmaker is ridiculous, as some ppl around here try to do by trashing that director/writer in certain threads. Debating purely based on aesthetics is pointless. When someone posts on a forum about how much they hate a certain director, they should have good examples, or else the conversation is not constructive at all. Once they've said their piece, to go beyond that is trolling the forums.

HTF guys, Ernest made a good point, and I hope you can be more specific about the political and aesthetic policies and allow more of our opinions to be heard.

Jason_Els

It's tough, Ernest. I jump through hoops to separate film from the political but as Steve Monaco has stated, "Film is inherently political." We connect to cinema on a political basis because if we didn't we wouldn't recognize film as being a relevant art form capable of transcending its medium. Politics is essentially any form of social relationship. Here the term usually refers to the politics of government, but the term is valid for any other social relationship.

We have just seen a thread closed and another heavily edited (thankfully not closed) because not everyone was capable of sticking to the purpose of the thread without interjecting their political views despite the threads having nothing to do with politics. In truth, I believe there is a lot of leeway here at HTF and usually threads only get closed once they begin to stray out of the discussion of the thread. As more people join the more opportunites there are for things to go off the track. I have seen threads of extreme potential volatility (eg. The Passion of the Christ) stay on-topic despite some brushes with derailment and other seemingly innocuous threads suddenly become heated debates of personal views. HTF works hard at making sure flames and personally offensive material remain at a minimum.

It comes down to the members and their ability to focus on the point without venturing into the offensive. It's the difference between saying, "XXXX is a terrible director and here's why I think so, example, example, example, corroberating evidence, conclusion.", and, " XXXX is a jerk and I hope he dies in an accident." Not everyone knows how or is capable of expressing themselves in such a way as to debate or discuss without getting offensive or offended.

I love discussing movies and I usually find there are enough sharp people here to understand that some topics absolutely, positively, can only discuss things within the context of the topic without it going wildly off-course.

I suggest that people take a big breath and carefully consider before they post. Keep to the topic and if the issues of religion, sex, government, race, or sexual preferences are to be discussed they MUST only be discussed within the context of the film. As soon as anyone goes off course you risk the thread being shredded. It's a huge shame when that happens because some of the best movies are politically volatile and it takes objectivity, courtesy, and restraint to discuss these films, not just scholarship and interest.

I liken it to a court room. The opposing lawyers will do everything possible to shred each other's arguments in the court room, do everything possible to make the other guy lose but, at the end of the day, they go out and have a few drinks together. Their debate is about the points of their arguments, not each other or their personal views. Some people have an impossible time separating impersonal debate and discussion from the person making the comment.

You may find this situation frustrating but it's the reality. HTF has to work within that reality lest it become just another flame-fest. That said, I don't agree with everything the mods do but it's not my forum and we have to recognize that this is Ron and Parker's board and if they support what a mod does then that's that. It's not a bad thing, just the way it is. We all choose to participate or not.

For beauty is only a step removed from a burning terror we barely sustain, and we worship it for the graceful sublimity with which it disdains to consume us. - Rainer Maria Rilke

My DVD Collection

Ricardo C

Man, an hour wasted on this sig! Thanks, Toshiba! :p

Ernest Rister

I know for a FACT that the mods treat ALL of us equally. What I'm suggesting is that maybe, in this era, in this time, perhaps there needs to be a "branching out" of the HTF, perhaps a "sub-board" for films of a highly political nature, films that deal with topics of a political bent -- a board that begins with a clear warning to all that topical matters will be discussed, and (more importantly) a declaraion that all people who comment on those films should treat each other with mutual respect.

Politics is part of life. It is also part of film. We at the HTF need to find a way to discuss this aspect of filmmaking with the knowldge that we are all in this together.

Best,

ER3

p.s

Man, I am *so* banned...

Parker Clack

Politics and religion may be a part of life and portrayed in film. It just will not be discussed on HTF. Now or in the future.

All of these points have been discussed many many times on this forum and there is no further need for discussion on the matter.

Parker