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Old 09-02-2003, 08:09 AM   #91 of 129
JamieD
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Awesome smiley, very true.

I'm not going to add my 2 cents, simply because it won't change anyone's opinion anyways.



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Old 09-02-2003, 09:26 AM   #92 of 129
Vlad D
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Taking a cue from Frank, lets just agree to disagree.

BTW, my link to Paul Naschy was also a joke, which you seemed to have completely missed. Maybe next time I'll add a .
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Old 09-02-2003, 10:18 AM   #93 of 129
john doran
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rex,

Quote:
I was merely querying as to why some people commenting here were (seemingly) perpetually satisfied with that.
i can't believe that with all of your "dramatic verisimiltudes" and "metacommentaries" and "statements of correlation rather than causation", you do not know the answer to this question.

you say this at one point:

Quote:
The ol' genre mishmash, as I've been saying. And that's the problem. See, werewolves, vampires, reänimated corpses, and such are 'sposed to be creatures of horror, not amusement-park "thrillride" icons. That's what I've been complainin' about.

and this:

Quote:
Blade is about vampires. No matter how you slice it [ahem], as far as I can see, it is a supernatural film

well, who says that werewolves and vampires and zombies (oh my!) are "supposed" to be creatures of horror?

and, as far as i can see, the vampires in Blade are decidedly (non-super)natural, since the movie goes to some lengths to rationalize vampirism as a function of some facet of as-yet poorly-understood human biology. in other words, it makes vampires a part of the natural world rather than apart from it..

Quote:
I just want a few---a small, but noticeable percentage of---films that are on the same general topics, but that give me something to think about long after the movie's over. We aren't getting that now.

howabout thinking about expanding the anemic criteria of eligibility for your narrow categories - consider, perhaps, that there are more things on earth, rex, than are dreamt of in your philosophy (of film).

but then, why not go a step further and consider that something is interesting only and precisely to the degree that someone is interested in it, and that just because you aren't interested in thinking about certain aspects of certain movies doesn't mean no one is.

i would like hollywood only to make movies that cater to my particular preference-set also...but, come on. seriously.

case in point:

Quote:
When a species is already adapted for certain abilities and to certain environments, it becomes a question of whether any new "adaptation", whether cultural or natural, is an outgrowth of necessity. I'll reserve final judgment in this case until I get to see the actual film---and that outcome will depend on how the film's producers explain the world that they have created---, but, just from the scenes in the trailer, all I see are "people" shooting in the same fashion as ordinary humans would. Hardly, inventive, that just shows the laziness of the writers in falling back on what the audience knows and is comfortable with. The writers seem to be doing what they almost always do: what's easiest for them.

are you suggesting, as you seem to be, that unless the vampires in underworld are (consistently and [ahem] interestingly) explained as having adopted the use of putatively "human" weaponry in their fight against the werewolves out of necessity, that vampires-with-guns will be just another hackneyed hollywood excursion down the path of least resistance?

if so, you make an egregiously dubious assumption about the nature of necessity and its role in both cultural and natural environments. maybe you could spend time thinking about that.

i mean, on the level of the most facially rudimentary logic, if humans have always and effectively used guns with silver bullets to kill werewolves, then those same guns would presumably prove many orders of magnitude more lethal in the hands of beings who also possess the characteristics necessary for successful gun-wielding, but to a superhuman degree.

but there are other, perhaps even more (dare i say) interesting rationales that i can imagine being presented by the movie in order to account for the vampires' apparent love of human ordnance.

Quote:
(And still audiences seem to want more of the same old "same-old".)
well, it would seem that you do, too - only it's more of your same old "same-old".

Quote:
Are the creatures' powers so attenuated by modern technology that they need to take up the enemy's tools to win and survive? Is there a "balance of power" among the supernaturals, such that one side or the other, or both, must resort to human methods? (If so, I'd like to see the explanation of that one.
like i said, "need" may have nothing to do with it; there are many ways to skin a cat as well as dispose of a werewolf or vampire...

besides, who's to say that the vampires in underworld will be gifted with powers that outstrip the efficiency of a silver bullet and thus make the use of (human) munitions otiose?

Quote:
The "creatures" will probably have lost all interest as supernatural beings, by such a turn of events.)
which would only matter if you are solely interested in vampires or werewolves as supernatural.

Quote:
Thus, these hooks get placed into all kinds of stories, even ones where they might not be organic to the story at hand. (Hence, genre mishmash.)
what difference does why a movie was made the way it was made, or why any piece of art was made, make to the enjoyment of that movie or book or poem or painting or photograph or song or....?

i mean, even if we were (and we're typically not) antecedently aware that the (artistic) intent behind the screenplay of a movie was, for instance, the (dubious) one of producing a work that was likely to provide the largest box-office gross to the studio, that only matters to the artistic character of the work based on one, but certainly not the only theory of aesthetic value.

for instance, what if you were to discover that welles wrote citizen kane as what he considered a shallowly and emptily pretentious film solely out of contempt for a cadre of movie critics he despised and who he knew would give the film rave reviews? or what if bolt penned a man for all seasons in a drunken haze, guided only by the direction of the studio to compose a screenplay about st. thomas more?

but what's more, if you believe that the purpose or point of the movie (whose point? director? screenwriter? cinematograher?) is critical to a (proper) evaluation of the film's merits, then how do you value any film in the absence of a sure knowledge of its point?

and who (besides you and yours) cares about "genre mishmash"? why should anyone else care? what difference does it make how easily and clearly a film can be slotted into different genres and sub-genres?

an engaging movie by any other name....
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Old 09-02-2003, 11:31 AM   #94 of 129
Max Knight
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I haven't seen so much pseudo-intellectual masturbating since college. Seriously. People, the film isn't even OUT YET! No one here (unless someone has gotten a special screening or worked on the production) knows anything more than the trailer which was aptly summed up earlier.

Let's just cut through all the BS here for a minute.

We can assume that there are a few different camps in this thread, and everyone is hoping the movie is:

1. Rex's Platonic Ideal of a "supernatural movie". If Underworld doesn't meet this, he will turn up his nose in disgust and go back to his Brie.

2. A Fight Fest for The action movie lovers. It doesn't matter if it's vampires, monks, or cops. If the action is good, and the bullets are flying, they will be happy.

3. Eye Candy for the Visual Junkies. Luscious sets? Tasty actresses in fetish-wear? Stylized combat? Count us in!

4. And more subgroups, but I don't feel like listing them all (I guess tech-noir is an official genre now? Cool, I love that stuff.)

Who cares if this movie does not meet your particular needs? You are out $9, but someone else is happy.

What is obnoxious here is that people are devaluing anything that they themselves don't like. Just remember that many pop-consumption products were only later recognized as art (the entire novel format anyone?). So before you puff up your chest and proclaim the death of cinema, remember that Wuthering Heights was practically a Harlequin Romance of its day. And don't even get me started on Charles Dickens.
Talk about "hooks".

I for one love "genre mishmash". The Matrix was a great movie, and was an *enormous* genre mishmash. And who is to say that any film can be considered anything but a genre mishmash? What is Pulp Fiction? Think of all the different ways that movie can be experienced. What is Lawrence of Arabia? Casablanca? Brahm Stoker's Dracula could be seen as a romance.

Kate in leather and latex is sufficient for visual enjoyment, but not necessary.



Max Knight
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Old 09-02-2003, 01:04 PM   #95 of 129
john doran
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Quote:
I haven't seen so much pseudo-intellectual masturbating since college. Seriously.

and i didn't even see as much of it then...

seriously.

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Old 09-02-2003, 07:51 PM   #96 of 129
Vlad D
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Quote:
I haven't seen so much pseudo-intellectual masturbating since college.


That is too funny. And too true.



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Old 09-03-2003, 01:08 AM   #97 of 129
Ryan_C
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Sima don nah, sima don! (Translated, simmer down now, simmer down!)

Can we get this thread back on topic and discuss the movie, please? Let's just all agree to disagree like someone said above. If we want to have a discussion of the genre, what to expect from it and hollywood let's start another thread. I'm all for a discussion, but this one's starting to get heated, and all these long winded, mutli-colored font-enthused posts are confusing and giving me a headache.

Edit: No offense intended to those posting the long posts full of font enthusiasm, I was only giving you a hard time. But they are a bitch to read, seriously.



Youth would be an ideal state if it came much later in life.
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Old 09-03-2003, 12:06 PM   #98 of 129
Zen Butler
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"Set in the secret nocturnal and supernatural world of vampires and werewolves, two groups that have been at war for centuries, this is the story of a romance between a female vampire warrior, Selene (Beckinsale), who's famous for her strength and werewolf-hunting prowess, and a peace-loving male werewolf, Michael (Speedman), who wants to end the war."


"What's "Underworld?" Vampires battling werewolves, Kate Beckinsale and Scott Speedman, an action/thriller with barely any CGI effects, and one of the most searched for movies on the Internet. Kate Beckinsale, Scott Speedman and director Len Wiseman provide an in-depth look at the making of "Underworld."

Hmm...been following this one for awhile. Have never been confused on what the film is about. I'd say the marketing is pretty coherent.

Still excited, despite all the crapping.



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Old 09-03-2003, 01:07 PM   #99 of 129
David Rogers
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I remember when, here at HTF, we could have discussions without long posts that take other posts apart sentence by sentence and treat it like a physics paper.

Repeat after me. It's a movie. You know the old song they used to play at concessions time at the Drive In?

(tune)
"Let's all go to the moooovies. Let's all go to the moooovies."
(dancing popcorn boxes and chocolate bars inserted here)

That's what it's all about. There are no rules for movies, only audience expectations that have to be either met or ignored. Meeting them doesn't guarantee the film will be well received; nor does ignoring them likewise ensure the film will fail. Audiences don't always know what they really wanted, and sometimes walk out of a film pleasantly surprised it worked to the degree or level they saw it did. Other times they walk out of what was supposed to have been a 'sure thing' very disappointed it didn't work at all.

Two very simple points follow.

* Will Underworld use good and engaging characterization in its story arc. Will we attach to either lead (the Romeo or Juliet of this forthcoming story)? Will we attach to any of their hangers-on? Will we identify with or enjoy any of them, or develop strong dislikes or hatreds of them?

* Will Underworld use good and enjoyable fight chorography in its depiction of action? Will we be allowed to appreciate and cheer solidly put together action sequences, or will it be dark-cam, quik-cut, and fast-edited to obscure a lack of money and/or effort having been put into the action?

That's really it. Just as no one ever expects the Spanish Inquisition, no one can ever truly expect a 'classic' film. I feel few walk into a movie expecting it will be a timeless film for the ages; and that few movies are even possibly eligible for such expectations in a given year.

What we walk in hoping for is a good flick that was fun. We want it to be fun, to be enjoyable, to be not-stupid, not-dumb, and not-rushed. We want honest effort from filmmakers and cast, we want genuine care to have been placed into the crafting of the movie. Fans are the easiest people in the world to please so long as you are actually trying, honestly, to succeed. If you take shortcuts or try to provide excuses, fans will rip you into shreds.

Underworld's a big if. Trailers are easy to manipulate. Quik-cuts are part and parcel in most trailer construction, making it easy to hide many problems or difficulties that were encountered in complicated action sequences. I'm pretty sure, for most of the potential audience for Underworld, if the action blows we're going to be beyond disappointed. I'm hoping they don't make the same mistakes I've seen many movies that fail at action commit. Unfortunately, we kind of have to bite the bullet to find out. The only comfort I have these days is DVD is big money, and the studios have seen movies that ‘lie’ or ‘cheat’ their box office returns with marketing see horrible disc sales. So perhaps we’re going to see the fiscal incentive that will encourage filmmakers (including Underworld’s) to not just settle for “screw the audience, they bought tickets opening weekend, what do we care if they hated it?”

I don't expect Underworld to be Matrix or Equilibrium, but it'd better not be Bulletproof Monk or I'll count it as a failed movie. Jackie Chan hopefully has proven to Hollywood audiences want to SEE the body art that is chorography. Edits to create the illusion of same are lame and never work unless eye rolling and disappointed sighs are the sought after reaction.

And to wrap up these thoughts, I'll just say I like movies that use intelligent and well crafted action, as I'm sure many action fans would agree. If Underworld can't put chorography sequences together without using the camera to cut it into place then they should really just not have bothered; and their film will be a joke. If the action has style and a sense of cool, a sense of motion and of realism, and enables us to appreciate the results on the screen, then it's very possible it could be a nice flick.

That it could be cool AND would be using vampires and werewolves as central characters merely allows for further coolness (or even worse laughability if they screw it up).



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Old 09-03-2003, 01:19 PM   #100 of 129
TheLongshot
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Quote:
Underworld's a big if.


That is the truth, and we won't really know until it comes out.

Quote:
I don't expect Underworld to be Matrix or Equilibrium


Well, I think it would be disappointing if it wasn't at least as good as Equilibrium, since it is in the same budget range...

Jason


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