Sight and Sound (2002) Greatest Films Club - Page 93

DonaldB · 06-30-2005, 01:18 AM

Quote:

At least when George does not like a flim, he has actually seen it.

This isn't true. I distinctly remember some tournament polls a few years ago where he voted against films he claimed to think were awful, then when some of these films were discussed elsewhere several months later, it was revealed he'd never seen them. He no doubt didn't recall having previously claimed to have seen them, or at least didn't think anyone else would remember. He's done the same thing with music, a subject on which he's similarly...not as knowledgable as he could be.

george kaplan · 06-30-2005, 06:36 AM

Donald,

Please give specifics, regarding either music or movies. I do recall, way back when we first started doing polls, that I would vote against a film I hadn't seen. But I never claimed to have seen those films, rather there was disagreement about whether one needed to abstain if they hadn't seen both films. It soon became clear that there was a concensus that people should abstain if they haven't seen both films, and from that point on I have done so. So, if you are talking about a long time ago, I think you are just misunderstanding why I would vote against a film I hadn't seen. If you're talking more recently, either you are mistaken, or else I made a mistake of one sort or another (e.g., got 2 films confused - I know I've done this in the past with Gates of Heaven and Heaven's Gate for instance). As for music, again, if you are talking about me voting in a poll for the Beatles against some rap group I've never heard, then again, that was not me claiming I'd heard the rap group, but a position that I did at one time espouse - that it was ridiculous for me to abstain when there was a 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 999% chance (I'm underestimating it of course) that I would prefer the Beatles to some rap group.

Lew Crippen · 06-30-2005, 12:20 PM

Quote:

At least when George does not like a flim, he has actually seen it.

Although I am a newer member of this forum, I have found George quite articulate in expressing why he did not like a movie--even when he was wrong

.

Of course most of us have likes and dislikes as to general types of art that may cause us to have views on specific works that we have not seen or heard.

George's instance of rap music is an excellent example.

Most of us understand however, that this is truely prejudging the specific work.

Brook K · 06-30-2005, 05:23 PM

Well George, you did just say something about (and this is a total paraphrase) not seeing what the big deal was about Mamet based on just seeing The Heist, one of his least successful efforts, and his most generic. But I agree that in the main, you don't prejudge anymore than is natural. Everybody does this to some extent. You won't see me watching Agent Cody Banks in this lifetime.

But I understood virtually every Bunuel movie I've seen far more than whatever you were trying to say Seth. Again, you're making blanket statements about "flawed" logic, when there are many other people who do not see such a thing at all, or don't mind if they do, because they are entertained, moved, enlightened or whatever.

Artists, even Tarkovsky, generally want to be understood and liked, a basic human quality. But not all of them choose to appeal to some mass common denomenator of entertainment either. There are artists who simply create, express themselves, etc, and hope that an audience finds the work. Because the work doesn't appeal to you, only means that it is a lesser work to you.

Like George's lack of interest in "character studies". But I would say that belittles the film, because it isn't just about an old man, it's about things like how the young relate to the old, how our lives don't turn out the way we plan them, the experience of being at the end of one's life, etc, all things that resonate with this viewer far beyond watching a simple "character study".

The film I watched last night The Browning Version, could also be termed that way. But it has a myriad of interacting relationships, a critique of British society and mannered classes, etc along with sharing themes with Wild Strawberries. The main character resonates deeply with me and Michael Redgrave's acting is absolutely brilliant.

I think about the movie and wonder how any "film fan" couldn't admire it, but there is no film that appeals to everyone and trying to appeal to everyone is often a grave mistake; yet it is committed constantly.

Mario Gauci · 06-30-2005, 05:28 PM

Brook,

A great post - I agree with you in every respect and I couldn't have said it better myself!

george kaplan · 06-30-2005, 06:06 PM

Well George, you did just say something about (and this is a total paraphrase) not seeing what the big deal was about Mamet based on just seeing The Heist, one of his least successful efforts, and his most generic.

Not to be too picky, what I said was

I realize I've only seen this one film of his, but after hearing such great things about him, it was a very disappointing, pedestrian film with dialogue every bit as trite as anything in the Star Wars universe IMO.

which was really a comment about just that one film. I wasn't really generalizing from the one film to a general opinion about Mamet, but rather taking a widely held opinion about Mamet, and relating it to one specific film.

Like George's lack of interest in "character studies". But I would say that belittles the film, because it isn't just about an old man, it's about things like how the young relate to the old, how our lives don't turn out the way we plan them, the experience of being at the end of one's life, etc, all things that resonate with this viewer far beyond watching a simple "character study".

Well, that may be largely a difference in terminology. When I say "character study", I include all the various interactions of characters that are, for lack of a better term, character driven, rather than plot driven. And again, I certainly have no objective criticism of character studies, or character driven films, simply the subjective observation, that I rarely find them interesting, and almost never interesting enough to watch a second time.

To keep things in perspective, Wild Strawberries is probably closer to a film I love (The Seventh Seal) than it is to a film I hate (Cries & Whispers). Long before Cries & Whispers was over, I hated that film with more loathing that I can express. By the end of Wild Strawberries, though it had never turned into a magical experience that I would want to see again, it never bothered me, and I certainly don't dislike it, let alone hate it, I'm really pretty neutral on it, which by my scale is actually high praise for a character study.

george kaplan · 06-30-2005, 08:10 PM

Les Dames du Bois de Boulogne

There are films I love, films I hate, and then there are films that I don't feel very strongly about one way or another. Some of those are memorable at least, others like this one, are so lightweight that I've already forgotten almost all of it. Not really the cinematic equivalent of Chinese food, more like the cinematic equivalent of a rice cake.

As someone who is gets a lot of flack for liking supposedly lightweight Hollywood fare, I can think of many, many such films that are more deserving of a place on this list than this one.

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Adam_S · 07-02-2005, 12:24 PM

Two or Three Things I Know About Her -

06/30/2005
OARVHS

My third Godard and this is the first to really stick with me. I'm fascinated by the mixture of documentary and fiction in the monologues of the women. At the same time there is a veneer of sexism running through the entire film that I can't quite place as either deliberate commentary or as an artifact of the way we 'look' at women in film. Although I was pretty bored throughout the film, I'd watch this again on the big screen, because it has its moments and has the potential to grow in my estimation.

Joe Karlosi · 07-02-2005, 01:20 PM

Quote:

there was a 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 999% chance (I'm underestimating it of course) that I would prefer the Beatles to some rap group.

For me, there's even a higher percentage!

Adam_S · 07-03-2005, 10:10 PM

Shoah Part II -

OARVHS
07/02/2005

still the final 30 minutes to go, but this is an astounding record to watch, repetitive and methodical its still horrifyingly compelling to watch. Just astonishing the unrelenting annihilation (shoah) that took place. The film/historical record drives it home again and again and again and again. It's almost incomprehensible (but more comprehensible) to put it in such personal terms of individual remembrances of the past, many of which are often very difficult for the survivor to describe.

------------------
Ordet -

OARDVD
07/03/2005

Just an astonishing film, one of the best treatments of religion I've ever seen on film. Powerful, intense film that stunned me on every level. Damn.

Adam