Sight and Sound (2002) Greatest Films Club - Page 82

Haggai · 11-18-2004, 04:00 PM

Quote:

I agree with Ebert that

1. Ethan is clearly a racist
2. The film glorifies Ethan

Ebert doesn't say one way or another, but I put 1&2 together and come to the logical conclusion that therefore the film is racist.

Without meaning any of the following to be antagonistic in any way, rather than just promoting more discussion: George, do you think Kill Bill glorifies murder? The Bride is clearly a murderer, and the film certainly glorifies her. And while the massive amount of killing she does on-screen is portrayed as the direct consequence of the terrible crimes committed against her, Ethan's violence against Comanches also stems directly from the cold-blooded murder of his loved ones. While his racism is very clear, it's not clear that he actually kills any Comanches directly because of it and not because of any revenge motivation for the rest of the Edwards family, Martha in particular. The closest he comes to purely racial violence (aside from his frequent threats against Debbie, of course) is the scene where he shoots out the eyes of an already dead Comanche, in order to condemn him "to wander forever between the winds."

Of course, there are numerous other examples in major cinema of bad people being glorified, The Godfather probably being one of the most obvious. Do movies that clearly protray their main characters as having bad quality X, while glorifying them in one way or another, automatically count as movies that glorify/promote bad quality X?

george kaplan · 11-18-2004, 04:29 PM

I didn't even finish reading your Kill Bill question, cause I haven't seen it yet, and don't want any spoilers.

Of course, there are numerous other examples in major cinema of bad people being glorified, The Godfather probably being one of the most obvious. Do movies that clearly protray their main characters as having bad quality X, while glorifying them in one way or another, automatically count as movies that glorify/promote bad quality X?

I don't want to get too far afield here, but we're talking about racism, not generic bad guys. For me, the bottom line is, does the film come across (to me) as being pro-racism. For me, the answer is yes in regards to films like The Searchers, Do the Right Thing, Birth of a Nation, etc.

As far as the Godfather, yes, there is a "bad" guy as a protagonist, but he is not the one-dimensional racist of Ethan, but rather a character who clearly has good and bad interwoven. But the bottom line is I never leave that movie feeling that I've just seen a pro-mafia or pro-murder film.

Haggai · 11-18-2004, 04:41 PM

No spoilers in my Kill Bill references, assuming you know that it's a revenge flick about professional killers, with a huge amount of violent death on-screen.

I didn't mention anything that spoils specific plot points about the story or about how it ends.

I can see where you're coming from on the comparison with The Godfather. That's really an epic story of a family as much as (or more than) it is a mafia movie, whereas The Searchers doesn't spend much time developing any sort of character "arc" regarding Ethan's racism. It's a revenge flick with a racist protagonist.

george kaplan · 11-18-2004, 06:04 PM

Actually that was more than I knew about Kill Bill, and I'm going to try to forget it. All I knew about Kill Bill is that it stars Uma Thurman and is some kind of martial arts film.

Adam_S · 11-18-2004, 07:36 PM

Crime of Monsieur Lange -

OARVHS
Loved this film, Batala is one of the slimiest examples of humanity ever put on screen, up there with Harry Lime. The other actors are wonderful, the story is delightfully light for treating some pretty damn dark material and Renoir's direction is exquisite to watch, I crave a criterion or other restored DVD release of this film, because I felt I missed a lot because of the extremely low quality of the tape/telecine.

Michael Elliott · 11-18-2004, 09:40 PM

George, what are your opinions on the Indians in THE SEARCHERS? Surely you can't see them as the good guys so how else does Ford tell this story? Even if Wayne's characters hadn't been "racist", then the Indians still would have been shown in a bad light and we'd be cheering for Wayne.

"Pro" anything will be up to that viewer and how the film effects them. I certainly do think films like GOODFELLAS and SCARFACE are pro-Mafia because they show the Mafia as being a great thing to be involved in. Many gangster films show how "cool" they are with all their money, women and power. Even in horror films some psychos consider SCREAM to be pro-violence and when they kill, they always go back and blame the film. You could use racism, religion or anything else to be "pro" to support one's views.

I haven't seen THE SEARCHERS in around 8 years but will try to throw it on this weekend so I can have some more up-to-date opinions.

As for KILL BILL, gore city.

george kaplan · 11-18-2004, 10:07 PM

Look, I've only seen the Searchers once, and it was long enough ago that the details have faded. All I know is that I finished that film firmly of the opinion that it was racist, and that's my opinion. I could rewatch it in order to refresh my memory of specifics, but I've got too many other films to watch to waste two hours watching I film I don't like and frankly despise. I guess fading memory of the film might be viewed as a drawback, but given my opinion of the film, I actually consider it a plus.

Adam_S · 11-21-2004, 12:21 PM

Story of the Last Chrysanthemum -

OARVHS

This is my second Mizoguchi film, I'm blown away by the two films I"ve seen of his. I very much look forward to seeing his other, later films as well. this film, although it plays a little long on a small TV, stunned me with its powerful tragedy.

Michael Elliott · 11-21-2004, 10:56 PM

The Searchers

Spoilers of course.

I watched this Ford classic earlier today due to the little debate going on here. I hadn't seen the film for many years, which I now regret because I had forgotten what a brilliant movie this is. Everything from the beautiful locations to the performances are right on the mark and Ford does a masterful job in direction. The film has the perfect blend of suspense, action, drama, comedy and even heart.

I'm 24 now and it was Roger Ebert who turned me onto older films back when I was around 8. I use to get up every morning to watch his show and that was my education when it came to older films and who were the legends of Hollywood. I respect his opinion more than any other person alive but I really feel his review of THE SEARCHERS was the worst thing he has ever written. There no doubt Wayne's character was a racist but there was no need to attack the movie for that because if you do---you're missing the point, albeit a small point. He called this the most influencial film in history, which could be true and then he goes on to talk about its influence on TAXI DRIVER and HARDCORE. I haven't seen HARDCORE yet but why on Earth would you bash THE SEARCHERS for having the hero be a racist yet overlook this factor in TAXI DRIVER? To me, Travis was certainly a lot more dangerous than Ethan, especially if you consider the times these guys were in.

At the start of the film there's no doubt Wayne is a racist and it's right up in our face. I really don't think Wayne or Ford was trying to hide this from the crowd. It's no doubt that most of the white people are on Ethan's side but again, look at the times. Apparently these characters had come under attack before so there were reasons why they would either hate these Indians or fear them. Why does Ethan hate them? I'm not sure I picked up an exact reason. When the Indians come to attack during the start of the film, the characters don't have to say a word and they all go into terror because they know what's about to happen. Considering they already knew what was going to happen, that tells me these attacks weren't that uncommon. hence, this could be the reason for their racism.

I had forgotten most of the film so this was pretty much a new viewing for me. At the start, Ethan goes after his niece to rescue her, not kill her. When did he decide to kill her? Was it the two year mark? Was it after 5 years? Was it when she was old enough to be raped by the Indians? Again, perhaps I missed something or perhaps Ford did but I never really caught onto when Ethan went after her to kill her. If he was going to kill her from the start, why didn't he just let the Indians have her? Why waste all this time tracking her down and risking your own life? If the niece had been "ruined" by the Indians, why not just let them have her?

Throughout the film several of the white people mention that the girl is either dead or "ruined". If that's the case, I wonder why so many of them were wanting Ethan to find her and to bring her home. If Ethan really wanted her dead then why didn't he kill her during that tradeoff when he first noticed her? Why was he going to trade for her only to kill her?

Then comes the ending when Ethan rides off chasing her and the crowd gets nervous thinking he's actually going to kill the girl. What's he do? Instead of killing her he picks her up and tells her "lets go home" or whatever. Ebert said does this one scene make us forget he was a racist? Well, why not? I guess those who claim this is a racist film would say Ford never had a scene with Ethan crying and saying he was sorry for his racism. I guess some people expect an explanation for why he's changed his mind. To me, it doesn't matter why he changed his mind. This is a MOVIE not a documentary or historical piece. There was no "rules" that had to be played. Why didn't wee see Ethan "break free" from his racist ideas? Because Ford was too smart for that. Had we seen Ethan "switch sides" then that would have ruined the wonderful suspense the ending had. As the viewer, we're watching Ethan case her, expecting him to try and kill her and hoping that the "brother" shows up to save the day. Instead, we get the ending we do, which I thought was wonderfully done and very touching.

In the end, yes that one scene does redeem Ethan. Does this ending mean he's no longer racist? I'm sure his hatred continued and I'm sure he killed more Indians. The ending shows he loved his niece. Wasn't she what the movie was about/for? He went to rescue his niece and did so in the end. The film wasn't about Ethan the racist, it was about him saving his niece. Was it wrong for Ford to make us dislike the Indians? Of course not because they raped/murdered innocent people. I don't think this is a statement saying all Indians were rapists and murderers. Again, this is a movie and not a documentary nor was it trying to tell a historical fact. A movie is made to entertain us and thrill us and I think this film is among the best at doing that.

Even though we don't love Ethan doesn't mean we shouldn't want him to save the girl.

paul_goz · 11-22-2004, 05:35 PM

I've lurked around this thread for months.

I've seen many (about 195) of the films on this list and feel each one deserve to be on it when viewed in context to the time it was produced.

That said, I beleive the poster george kaplan has chosen an accurate user name. His insistance of what is and what is not a good film, make his opinions appear to be not that of one man but of an organization instead. Perhaps he really is an amalgam of studio execs who want all films to follow a predictable narrative, with a great emotional payoff at the end, and who only pose as a film buff under his screen name to manipulate other individuals ideas of good film.

Perhaps you should open your mind and realize, art is different things to different people. Commentary on a film should not devolve into campaigning against a film, solely because you found it hard to understand, distasteful, boring, stupid, etc.

While your ratings obviously mean a great deal to yourself, how about letting others formulate their own opinions about the films on this list without your politics getting in the way?

I will go back to lurking..............