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06-24-2004, 02:32 PM
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#2011 of 3711 
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Member
Location: Alexandria, VA
Join Date: Nov 2003
Local Time: 12:44 PM
Local Date: 08-30-2008
Posts: 3,795
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Wow, I've never seen Last Year At Marienbad, but I really have to now, because I find all this math stuff (I'm a mathematician) incredibly fascinating!
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Of course the starting position is a winning position for the first player, but since there are so many matches and ways to choose it is hard for the uninitiated to recognize, so when M goes second, the first player invariably makes a mistake. And since M is prescient (clearly his mastery of the game is symbolic), he immediately discerns an error—but never makes one himself.
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Maybe the master player can always recognize how to convert a mistaken first move by the first player into a guaranteed-winning position for himself. |
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06-24-2004, 02:55 PM
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#2014 of 3711
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Member
Location: Ajijic, Jalisco, Mexíco
Join Date: May 2002
Local Time: 11:44 AM
Local Date: 08-30-2008
Posts: 11,395
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Maybe the master player can always recognize how to convert a mistaken first movie into a guaranteed-winning position for himself.
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He can--and it is really quite easy.
Here is an example Haggai: Your opponent has the first move from the full layout (1,2,3,4,5).
If he removes the match in the first row (the single match row), you as the second player (or a single match from the third or fifth row—just some examples), you as the second player must make as small and seemingly neutral a move as possible, as you have been left with a losing position.
But suppose he takes one match from the second row (one of many errors). The master player takes two matches of the third row and is now in control. Or instead suppose your opponent takes both matches from the second row—also an error. By taking all of the matches from the third row, the master player is again in control.
¡Time is not my master!
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06-24-2004, 02:55 PM
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#2015 of 3711
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Member
Location: Ajijic, Jalisco, Mexíco
Join Date: May 2002
Local Time: 11:44 AM
Local Date: 08-30-2008
Posts: 11,395
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Quote:
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Maybe the master player can always recognize how to convert a mistaken first movie into a guaranteed-winning position for himself.
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He can--and it is really quite easy.
Here is an example Haggai: Your opponent has the first move from the full layout (1,2,3,4,5).
If he removes the match in the first row (the single match row), you as the second player (or a single match from the third or fifth row—just some examples), you as the second player must make as small and seemingly neutral a move as possible, as you have been left with a losing position.
But suppose he takes one match from the second row (one of many errors). The master player takes two matches of the third row and is now in control. Or instead suppose your opponent takes both matches from the second row—also an error. By taking all of the matches from the third row, the master player is again in control.
¡Time is not my master!
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06-24-2004, 03:01 PM
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#2016 of 3711
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Member
Location: Alexandria, VA
Join Date: Nov 2003
Local Time: 12:44 PM
Local Date: 08-30-2008
Posts: 3,795
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Right, you just need to get to a guaranteed winning position, by (like you suggested above) applying the right binary math calculation. There's no way to ensure that it'll come after the first move, or indeed after any particular move by your opponent. But the chances of a non-expert being able to avoid all the potential pitfalls, on every single move, throughout the entire game, are very close to zero.
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06-24-2004, 03:01 PM
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#2017 of 3711
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Member
Location: Alexandria, VA
Join Date: Nov 2003
Local Time: 12:44 PM
Local Date: 08-30-2008
Posts: 3,795
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Right, you just need to get to a guaranteed winning position, by (like you suggested above) applying the right binary math calculation. There's no way to ensure that it'll come after the first move, or indeed after any particular move by your opponent. But the chances of a non-expert being able to avoid all the potential pitfalls, on every single move, throughout the entire game, are very close to zero.
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06-24-2004, 04:11 PM
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#2018 of 3711
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Member
Join Date: Nov 1998
Local Time: 11:44 AM
Local Date: 08-30-2008
Posts: 12,185
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There's no light that turns on in my brain that says "I have to figure out how this works
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Clearly Brook is not an engineer. 
The solution to getting an engineer to do any task you want him to is to simply say "no one can figure THAT out". 
Works every time. In my days as an undergrad it was sad to see EEs/MEs go running off to solve any problem that a prof deemed difficult or unsolvable....even worse was realizing I was doing it too. :b
So my reaction to Lew's post is just the opposite. I'm reading and thinking "finally a decent post around this joint". 
BTW, no time to post about it now but if you notice my new location under my name you might guess which S&S film I added a few days ago.
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06-24-2004, 04:11 PM
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#2019 of 3711
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Member
Join Date: Nov 1998
Local Time: 11:44 AM
Local Date: 08-30-2008
Posts: 12,185
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Quote:
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There's no light that turns on in my brain that says "I have to figure out how this works
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Clearly Brook is not an engineer.
The solution to getting an engineer to do any task you want him to is to simply say "no one can figure THAT out".
Works every time. In my days as an undergrad it was sad to see EEs/MEs go running off to solve any problem that a prof deemed difficult or unsolvable....even worse was realizing I was doing it too. :b
So my reaction to Lew's post is just the opposite. I'm reading and thinking "finally a decent post around this joint".
BTW, no time to post about it now but if you notice my new location under my name you might guess which S&S film I added a few days ago.
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