Sight and Sound (2002) Greatest Films Club - Page 4

Seth Paxton · 02-18-2003, 09:49 PM

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Yeah, it kind of seems like the "Spielberg" ending. But I kind of like a little optimism in my movies anyway, so it's okay with me.

Back to this Rashomon thing, I think an artist should be true to the moral and/or philosophical beliefs he holds. So if Kurosawa is more of a humanist, or at least sympathetic to the human condition then certainly you should walk away from one of his films with that mindset.

I don't think anyone would see Ikiru or Red Beard as contradicting the final tone of Rashomon. And in fact I think the same human optimism comes through in Seven Samurai, Sanjuro and even the darker, cynical Yojimbo.

The key (and this is tricky) is differentiating the ending created for the artist versus the ending created for the audience (or specifically the box office). If Kurosawa sits back and considers his work and says "I don't like that ending, that doesn't express how I feel about life" then I think modifying the ending to his emotional needs makes perfect sense.

Of course, as with all artists, that doesn't mean we have to agree with either his beliefs nor his method of telling them. I don't think he totally contradicts the rest of Rashomon with that ending, though it certainly puts a new slant on things. To me he has just modified the story to represent himself as an artist more than the original writer.

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Lew Crippen · 02-19-2003, 09:45 AM

Out of the cradle, endlessly rocking

I watched Intolerance via a TCM time-shift and was again very impressed. Once you get past the limitations of the day (1916) the complexity of this work emerges as a seamless whole. By the time we get to the last 15–20 minutes, the artifice of the various story lines disappears and the increased tempo of the cross-cutting just sweeps the viewer along to the conclusion.

I do feel that the coda could have been discarded.

Holadem · 02-19-2003, 12:05 PM

I would like to try my hand at this, please add me to the list with 44 viewed so far :b

--
Holadem

Adam_S · 02-19-2003, 02:31 PM

Thanks Seth, that's a brilliant summation of what I essentially feel about the 'humanist' ending of Rashoman.

I was really annoyed after the screening of Rashoman, because our TA was trying ardently to convince us that while a good movie it's not a Japanese movie because its so western with the very evil, very western humanism ending. The TA then attacked me when I tried to bring up the point that humanism seemed like a somewhat universal idea to me, and even if it is western in origin, why should we sneer at its iteration and adoption in other cultures? Someone else brought up the point, "I don't watch Japanese films to learn about culture," and the irrational response to that was "well, I'd like to think that there is more to movies than simple entertainment." :þ And actually this TA isn't very bad, he's generally very openminded.

Adam

Lew Crippen · 02-19-2003, 03:06 PM

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because our TA was trying ardently to convince us that while a good movie it's not a Japanese movie because its so western with the very evil, very western humanism ending.

I wasn’t there Adam, so I can only offer what you already know: Kurosawa was always viewed by the Japanese as being too Western. Even after he became famous on the world cinema stage, he was not embraced within Japan.

And this film was made in 1950, only five years after the end of WWII.

I have the new Criterion on my shelf, unviewed. I need to watch it again in order to discuss with confidence.

Kirk Tsai · 02-19-2003, 07:14 PM

Adam, great to know you saw Sherlock Jr. The billiards scene, motorcycle, falling off from the poll and into the car, the film is flat out astonishing. Combined with the humorous and witty use of the film medium itself--who can ever forget the closing moments?--Sherlock Jr. is still my favorite Keaton.

Whether we have a favorable view on the ending or not, I do think it is a distinct break with most of the film. The bulk of the movie is a modernist construction, and the end is definitly not.

I share the favorable opinions on Rashomon's ending. Part of the consideration is that Kurosawa was not widely known to the international audience before Rashomon, so it's impossible to say that Kurosawa was pandering to western audiences. I have read In The Grove and Rashomon (both avaliable in the Criterion DVD, which is very highly recommended), and though the premise Kurosawa uses is similar to the texts, the texts themselves are not satisfying in cinematic terms.

Pascal A · 02-20-2003, 09:35 AM

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Part of the consideration is that Kurosawa was not widely known to the international audience before Rashomon, so it's impossible to say that Kurosawa was pandering to western audiences.

Just to clarify things (without taking sides on Rashomon since I do think it's a strong Kurosawa film, irrespective of its influences or possible compromises), Kurosawa may not have been known in the West, but Japan at the time (1945-1952) was under American occupation and films made by the Japanese were subject to scrutiny and censorship by the Americans.

Several filmmakers found their artistic integrity and cultural identity so severely compromised that they decided to stop working completely. Even the very prolific and highly regarded Kenji Mizoguchi was only able to create a few films during this time, and he even acknowledges that films like Utamaro and His Five Women "played" to American ideals of an egalitarian, class structure-less society. Kurosawa certainly was no exception, and one could argue that his acceptance in in the West is because of his progressive, "Western" outlook (which is not the same as deliberately "pandering") that was conducive to what the US and the postwar, non-monarchy Japanese government were allowed to show the outside world as representative images of the "new" Japan.

Anyway, I guess I'm saying that I don't completely agree with the TA, but he does raise some valid points.

Brook K · 02-20-2003, 12:55 PM

Some of this influence is also because, like the New Wavers later, Kurosawa was a fan of American movies. John Ford was his favorite director.

I'm having a great time discovering Douglas Sirk. All That Heaven Allows is about the dark side and hypocrisy of the American Dream. A culture that creates a prison for its members. Whereas Written On The Wind was a work of bravura camera movement, All That Heaven Allows uses grand lighting to make its greatest impression. I was most reminded of Dario Argento's Suspiria as one of the only other films I've seen that uses lighting to such great effect.

The music, set design, costumes, everything within the bounds of the camera lense is used to tell the story and to tell a story that is much deeper than merely what the actors are saying or they're actions onscreen. This is art of a very high caliber, though it's also easy to see why these films could be misinterpreted.

Also very fun to compare this to Haynes' Far From Heaven now that I've finally seen its precursor.

I'll definitely be adding both these Sirk films to my collection and will probably pick up Imitation of Life as well.

Might be awhile before my next entry. My order is still screwy due to out-of-stocks at Netflix and I'm still working on 2002 films and Criterions rather than sticking all the list films at the top. I think Nanook of the North is next on my list.

Seth Paxton · 02-20-2003, 02:25 PM

Okay, I finally counted mine up.

Once I get a chance to watch Jules and Jim that I have rented, plus Broken Blossoms in class next week and then Caligari in class in a few more weeks, I will be at 115 films seen.

I have a few others like Greed that I have seen parts of but not the whole film, or not recent enough to fairly count IMO.

I have many others queued up at Netflix too.

Of course someone like Brook has me at a disadvantage what with only catching 47 of the 2003 films when I've doubled that.

(yes, I understand the merits of seeing the classics over new crap...accessibility has some effect on that)

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Nanook of the North

great film, really a precurser to those Disney wildlife/lifestyle "documentaries". There is plenty of setup and storytelling going on, but its great filmmaking especially for its time.

Thi Them · 02-20-2003, 03:04 PM

I've added Holadem and Seth to the club.

~T