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[ Advice on Light dimmers, please. ]

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Old 02-23-2004, 09:39 AM   #1 of 15
Tom Kay
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Advice on Light dimmers, please.


Hi All;

I have read as much as I can about various light dimmer systems, typically the X-10 and the Lutron. I'm still as confused as ever, seeing that some call X-10 junk, and others love it.

So, could some of you comment on WHY X-10 might be junk, or why it's wonderful? Same with Lutron, for those who use it.

I am simply trying to create a group of lighting scenes, say 5 or 6 different settings for different situations in my room. Movie viewing, lights off. Movie paused, some lights up 50 percent. Movie finished, lights ramp slowly up to 100 percent, that sort of thing.

My local Home Depot just started carrying X-10, and they warn that you need a surge protector, because X-10 is very easily fried. Anyone have that happen? What did you do to fix it, and ensure it doesn't happen again?
I guess what I am looking for are details here. WHY is something good or bad.

Thanks to all who read and/or reply. Tom.
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Old 02-23-2004, 01:18 PM   #2 of 15
Wayne A. Pflughaupt
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Quote:
So, could some of you comment on WHY X-10 might be junk...
For one thing the buttons on the wall plates for manual use are junk. They will break if they get used too much, so you’d better be using the remote pretty much exclusively.

I don’t know that I’ve actually seen them “fry,” but it wouldn’t surprise me if they did. Overall, I’ve found them to be fairly fragile and light-duty stuff. I mean, if a regular 50c toggle light switch will last 25-30 years I certainly expect something that cost as much as that to at least last that long. Is that unreasonable?

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt


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Old 02-23-2004, 02:16 PM   #3 of 15
JohnnyN
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ok. I'm one of those people that called the x10 stuff junk, but I admit that's harsh... what i meant to say is that they are not built as well as the lutron dimmers and from personal experience the wireless control part of it is extremely slow... that is I'll push a button to turn the lights off or dim the lights, and the lights won't respond for 1-3 seconds, instead of instantly like the lutron... Having said that, you'll certainly have more control available if you use the bundled x10 pc software... using the x10 software, you can script some macros and create virtually unlimited scenes... the pc based software will perform better than using any x10 remote to control the lights, it's just that I wanted something much simpler and more responsive...

Also, on some of the lamp and duplex modules, there's this really annoying and scary click when you turn the outlet on or off...

if you go here you'll see that x10.com gets a 4.18 out of 10 with 18 reviews... you won't see that kind of disatisfaction from lutron owners.


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Old 02-23-2004, 02:40 PM   #4 of 15
Tom Kay
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Wayne and Johnny

(And anyone else who might still reply) Thanks, this is exactly the meaty info I need to read, before making a decision.

Are Lutron dimmers remote (RFI) controlled from your chair, and are they scene capable? Can they be programmed with a hand-held transmitter to give 5 or 6 separate choices of scenes? I don't think I'd need any more then that many, movie viewing, movie pause, movie off, shagging by the future gas fireplace... oops, can we say that?

Thanks and keep 'em coming !

Tom.
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Old 02-23-2004, 04:31 PM   #5 of 15
Jimmy-D
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hahaha funny funny I'm interested in this too.
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Old 02-23-2004, 05:09 PM   #6 of 15
MikeTC
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Tom, what does RFI mean in your book? Mine is Radio Frequency Interference which is not related to lightings. The reason I'm asking is that Lutron does have both RF (RadioRA) and IF (Spacer & GRAFIK Eye) based dimming systems. They are all scenes and remote capable. RF is a lot more costly but easier to implement into existing construction/house. What system are you looking at?



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Old 02-24-2004, 12:00 AM   #7 of 15
MikeWh
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Tom-- I'm going to add my 2cents on X10, just to make your decision more difficult.

Be VERY careful when you read information concerning the term "X10". This term commonly refers to the company (www.x10.com) AND the technology used in the type of devices made by that company AND OTHER COMPANIES.

In my experience the vast majority of people who have had problems with the construction quality of these devices are usually referring to the products produced by the X10 company. I will say that I have a couple X10-made devices, and I am (so far) satisfied with them. Some people advise that if quality is a major concern, then X10's "X10 Pro" product line (www.x10pro.com) is a better way to go.

Now, as far as the other companies--- Smarthome (www.smarthome.com), PCS (also available at smarthome.com or more info at www.pcslighting.com), and Leviton make X10-compatible devices (in addition to others). I have been very happy with my Smarthome dimmers. My experience is that their construction quality and overall performance are excellent. I should mention that there are many people here, who rave about the PCS switches.

I should note that I previously owned a Lutron Spacer (not Spacer System) dimmer, which I have replaced with a Smarthome dimmer. I have had nothing but a good experience with the Lutron dimmer, but as you'll see below, it had limitations for what I needed once I began remodeling my original HT.

Now to my summary of the pros and cons (IMHO):

Lutron Spacer (not "Spacer System")--
PROS:
EXTREMELY easy and elegant control of a single load from one or more locations.
IR control can be easily learned on a learning/programmable IR remote.
CONS:
Can only control one load, so it's not "scene-capable."
Not expandable.
Unfortunately, it's easily confused with the "Spacer System", because of Lutron's short-sightedness in naming the product lines.

Lutron Spacer System--
PROS:
Very nice system for controlling several lighting loads across varying scenes.
IR control integration (same as above).
CONS:
Can become expensive for people who just want minimal control of a few, simple scenes.
Lighting design must be well planned-- once it's installed, you'll have to rip out drywall and expand the box, if you want to add more controls in the master control box. (NOTE-- This is really just a "given" as with ANY construction design, but it's important to know that X10 scenes may be expanded without ripping out your previous construction).

Lutron GRAFIK Eye--
PROS:
Allows exceptional control of preset scenes.
IR control integration.
CONS:
Expensive.
Same design planning issue as above.

X10-compatible Devices--
PROS:
Can be used to control more than just overhead lighting; e.g., screen, curtains, masking, appliances/components, or other plug-in lights.
Relatively cheap solution for simple scene control ability.
HIGHLY expandable.

CONS:
More control capability usually requires more investment.
Not as easily integrated into an IR-controlled environment. (Solutions ARE READILY available, but it's not as simple as programming a learning IR remote.)
Powerline carrier technology has some problems for some people-- in particular, line noise/interference. (Again, solutions are available).
Requires some device programming. The more complicated your scenes, the more complicated the programming (generally).
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Old 02-24-2004, 09:23 AM   #8 of 15
Tom Kay
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Hi Mike and Mike !

Mike TC;
Yes, I made a mistake by saying RFI, I meant just RF, meaning radio control from the couch. No wires, just a hand-held unit which sends and RF signal to some receiver, then commands the lights to dim, in one of several possible scenes.

Mike WH;
Thanks for your very detailed message. I am sure that I may have confused X-10, the company, with X-10-like products. So far I have been very interested in some of the Switchlinc dimmers that I see on the Smarthome website, but started to shy away from them, thinking that they are X-10 products, and not well built. Was this premature or incorrect thinking? They seem to have the scene-capable features that I want. Cost seems reasonable, but will they last? Do they wear out more quickly if you actually switch them on by hand, and not with the remote?

So, the research continues, but all of this info helps. I'll go and have a look at some of the websites you guys have mentioned.

Cheers and thanks, Tom.
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Old 02-24-2004, 11:50 AM   #9 of 15
Ronald.H
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Personally, I'm using the Lutron Spacers. I have two sets of lights - two wall sconces near the front of the room, and then two wall sconces and a ceiling can near the rear of the room.

One Lutron works the front lights, and the other the rear lights. With the Spacers, I can specify scenes and I've programmed my receiver remote with the IR codes. So, one code tells the front dimmer to one level of dim and the other to be a different level. So when I point the remote at the switches and hit "1," I get the scene I've created for movie watching - nearly off in front, and somewhat dim in the rear (so you can see your popcorn )

It works great. The only thing left is to add the master IR receiver at the front of the room so I can point the remote to the front like I do for everything else (my dimmers are at the rear of the room).
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Old 02-24-2004, 03:24 PM   #10 of 15
MikeTC
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Tom, I think you meant IR not RF. Unless you don't have line of sight to the dimmer or want to use the remote in a different room, you don't need RF. As I said earlier, RF is expensive and you cannot use normal remotes that comes with your equipment or most after market remotes.

You did not mention your light requirements; how many sets of lights are you planning to control? One set- Spacer dimmer; two sets on up are Spacer System or Grafik Eyes depend on your situation.
Are you replacing existing switches or new install where you can plan your electrical runs? If it is existing switches, are they located in the same electrical box or are they located all over the room?



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Old 02-24-2004, 04:26 PM   #11 of 15
Tom Kay
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Hi Mike TC

Actually I thought I meant RF, because I wanted a non-line of sight remote control, so I didn't have to point it at the "target" all the time. Just press a button and forget where it's going. Smarthome's part # 4000, non-line-of-sight thingy.

I think the Smarthome product will work for me for that requirement. I'll make sure, though.

For lighting, I am not rock-solid on the final number of circuits I'll have yet, but here goes with the plan so far:
I have a 24 by 14 foot room, all open, but sort of cut in half by the heat duct on the ceiling. So in the front half, I'll have 4 can lights on one circuit in the middle of the ceiling, the